Does Carolina Kostner receive inflated marks?

Johar · Nov 30, 2008

I am asking this for someone who gets to watch alot more skating than I do:

Does Carolina Kostner get astronomical marks from the judges just for staying on her feet? It doesn't matter if she looks like an awkward seagull during the "artistic" portions of her programs. It doesn't matter if she double foots a lot of her jumps and her one foot landings are wonky 99% of the time. It doesn't matter if she telegraphs her flip and lutz so badly that Western Union should sue for copyright infringement. Nope. The judges love Carolina and if she stands up, she medals.

HCOSurfer · Nov 30, 2008

IMO, she does. I just don't "get" her skating style. I mean the girl has great basics that's for sure, but her speed looks so uncontrollable. I will say she does have good jumps when she lands them cleanly (which half of the time she doesn't). Overall it just baffles me why she gets such high marks.

Mathman · Nov 30, 2008

No, not at all. In the first place, you are quite right in saying that the IJS does not take off seagull points. So whether we like her style or not -- some people do, some don't -- this does not really factor into the score.

In her last two outings Carolina got 152.76 points at Skate Canada and 170.72 points at Cup of Russia. This compares to Yuna Kim and Mao Asda scoring in the 190s for their best performances.

If you look at the protocols, it is hard to see where there is any "inflation" going on. She got credit for the elements she did. She got hit with a < when she underroated her 3T in combination, like any other skater would.

As for her PCSs. she has gotten in the high 6's pretty consistently this season. At Skate Canada her PCSs for the LP were below Suguri's and Czisny's, and quite a bit below Rochette's.

Where is the "inflation?"

museksk8r · Nov 30, 2008

I don't think it's fair to single her out as if she has been the only beneficiary of high PCS marks for not so stellar programs. Brian Joubert, Tomas Verner, Mao Asada, and Miki Ando also come to my mind as examples.

I personally have found Kostner's placements and scores for the most part to be justified for this skating season throughout the Grand Prix. I can't say the same for the other skaters I've mentioned above, but that's just my opinion.

Poor Alban Preaubert is the "wuz robbed" skater of the season so far, IMO.

ManyCairns · Nov 30, 2008

6.95 for transitions was her lowest PCS at CoR, ranging up from there to 7.55. That seems high to me, given her habitual number of stumbles and bobbles. I wouldn't give 7.15 for a program with a lot of bobbles, a hands down, etc., for example. Definitely be giving out the -GOE, too -- which she may well have gotten, I'm not gonna go looking up detailed protocols. Anyway, we can nitpick individual results. I guess I'm old school enough to prefer to see a cleaner skate than Carolina generally puts out. I have a general sense of a skater who is overscored, but that is surely subjective.

gold12345 · Nov 30, 2008

Johar said:
Does Carolina Kostner get astronomical marks from the judges just for staying on her feet?

Even when she falls, like in the SP at COR, it doesn't seem like a big deal. I realize perfectly clean skates from anybody are hard to come by nowadays, but Kostner seems to fare better than most people when she messes up. Her silver medal winning performance at Worlds last year was just frustrating to watch.

Audrey19 · Nov 30, 2008

Why Kostner again? I'm not a tech specialist, but I don't think that she is sooo overscored, probably sometimes her marks are higher than deserved, but not always and she isn't the only, most skaters receive generous scores from time to time, so I don't get all this bashing. And she is very artistic indeed, though she might not be liked by everyone.

Mafke · Nov 30, 2008

I don't have anything against Kostner but I can't say I find there's that much I enjoy about her skating either.

She seems fast as the dickens and she doesn't regularly underrotate (the worst of all possible sins in CoP), maybe that's enough for the judges?

As for PCSs in general, they just make no sense to me. I've given up on trying to understand them as anything but protocal judging placeholders.

Tinymavy15 · Nov 30, 2008

I think it is perhaps that she always roatates her jumps fully that she get full credit. Most other skaters tend to underotate when the fall of otherwise mess up.

adamlondon · Nov 30, 2008

I understand where people are coming from if they think she is overscored in her component marks. SHe does look a bit inelegant and clumsy sometimes and not very refined.
However, watching her live is something to behold- she skates around the rink like a speed skater and has very deep edges on everything as a result. From what I understand everything is more difficult to do like that, and it takes a lot of stamina and makes the whole thing more exciting. While she is nowhere near a ballerina as some of the others and does not feel the music(in my opnion) the judges reward her for this in the component marks. I guess strictly speaking PCS marks come under artistry.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 30, 2008

She does! and so do all top skaters! She's not alone in that category.

chuckm · Nov 30, 2008

My biggest complaint is the high PCS scores Carolina gets in the TR and PE categories. When a skater telegraphs a jump for the entire length of the rink, the TR score should be in the low 5s, not 6.95 as she got for her FS at CoR.

At CoR, Carolina fell out of her triple loop, fell on a 2a+2t combo, underrotated her 3s, and singled/double-footed her final axel; that sloppy skate got 7.15 for PE.

At CoR, Rachael Flatt had a near-clean FS with a ratified 3/3 and lots of interesting transitional moves, and she got 6.00 for TR and 6.20 for PE.

Mathman · Nov 30, 2008

chuckm said:
At CoR, Carolina fell out of her triple loop, fell on a 2a+2t combo, underrotated her 3s, and singled/double-footed her final axel; that sloppy skate got 7.15 for PE.

I have never been completely clear on exactly what the Performance/Execution score is. All the things you mentioned were mistakers on individual technical elements, which should be reflected in the GOEs. (?)

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 30, 2008

Mathman said:
I have never been completely clear on exactly what the Performance/Execution score is. All the things you mentioned were mistakers on individual technical elements, which should be reflected in the GOEs. (?)

and Skating Ability? What is it doing in the PC scores? The Falls, the URs, the WET offs, have already been judged and scored.

One simple Presentation score is all that is needed and it will include transitions or put Transitions in the Tech score. Transitions are technical.

lmarie086 · Nov 30, 2008

chuckm said:
My biggest complaint is the high PCS scores Carolina gets in the TR and PE categories. When a skater telegraphs a jump for the entire length of the rink, the TR score should be in the low 5s, not 6.95 as she got for her FS at CoR.

I think that's my complaint as well summed up. I hate seeing a skater (and doesn't matter who it is, I'll dislike seeing it) telegraph almost the entire length of the rink. It is at the expense of choreography and gives a somewhat choppy feel to the program in my eyes.

I love her speed; it looks amazing on tv (and the computer screen as well but not so much lol) and I can only imagine how powerful it must be in person. She also has very strong basics; I do think she deserve credit for her strengths. But I find IMO, she sacrifices elegance for that speed and it's just somewhat disappointing to watch and see that get high scores sometimes, especially for someone who doesn't understand COP all that well (me!).

chuckm · Nov 30, 2008

I think if a FS is marred by multiple noticeable faults such as falls, near-falls, wobbles, hands-down, and wonky landings, that should definitely affect the P/E mark.

Execution (per ISU definition): quality of movement and precision in delivery

A sloppy performance does NOT exhibit "precision in delivery".

Mathman · Nov 30, 2008

chuckm said:
Execution (per ISU definition): quality of movement and precision in delivery.

To me that says, "she skated well." Sort of like, "Skating skills."

What I am wondering is, do we need GOEs to tell us whether a skater fell, put a hand down, had a wobbly landing -- and then a category called skating skills that tells us whether she fell, put a hand down, had a wobbly landing,. And then a category "Performance/Execution where things like falls, hands down, wobbly landings, etc. are judged. And then a category where we judge whether the musical interpretation was adversely affect by the skater falling, putting a hand down, having a wobbly landing.

Thisa seems to me to be a lot like 6.0 judging. 5.8 = no falls, no hands down, no wobbly landings...; 5.7 = OK, maybe a little wobble.

Bennett · Dec 1, 2008

Johar said:
I am asking this for someone who gets to watch alot more skating than I do:

Does Carolina Kostner get astronomical marks from the judges just for staying on her feet? It doesn't matter if she looks like an awkward seagull during the "artistic" portions of her programs. It doesn't matter if she double foots a lot of her jumps and her one foot landings are wonky 99% of the time. It doesn't matter if she telegraphs her flip and lutz so badly that Western Union should sue for copyright infringement. Nope. The judges love Carolina and if she stands up, she medals.

I think that the CoP as a system loves her more than judges love her. It's not judges' fault that she receives high base values for jumps that are fully rotated but are stepped out.

I agree about telegraphing. They should give her some deduction.

As for artistry, I actually love her presentation style very much :love:

I hope that she will be consistent someday.:agree:

Buttercup · Dec 1, 2008

Personally, I like Carolina's skating, but I agree she does on occasion get PCS that are very high for the quality of the performances. She is not the only one, of course. The problem, as has been discussed on GS at length, is that the PCS are a. subjective and b. not used correctly. Instead of looking and saying, great skating skills, mediocre transitions, the judges just use a ballpark figure of what they think of the skater and the program and work around that for all five components.

I agree with Audrey19 that there's no point in devoting a thread like this to Kostner. She is by no means the only skater to have been held up on occasion, and I find these discussions often end up with people listing whichever skaters they happen to dislike as examples of awarding overly generous PCS.

PCS is no more or less subjective than the old artistic impression mark: of course it's fair or too low for the skaters I like, and high for the ones I'm not a fan of

.

SXTN · Dec 1, 2008

The telegraphing of her Lutz and Flip is really very bad... This is probably because of her insecurity... But therefore they changed her entrance into the 3 Loop a couple of seasons ago and now it comes out of nowhere...
I acutally like her programs most of the time. They are interesting, she has great presence on the ice to my mind and of course superb skating skills when it comes to speed and edges.
How is elegance defined? Because some say she is not elegant and some say she is... Even Dick Button refers to her "as an elegant skater" on several occasions... In Worlds 2008 , he said "....but she should get great credit in the component scores for elegance of line and long, speedy edges" after she messed up the Salchow-combination...

Does Carolina Kostner receive inflated marks?

Johar

HCOSurfer

Mathman

museksk8r

ManyCairns

gold12345

Audrey19

Mafke

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

adamlondon

Joesitz (RIP)

chuckm

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

lmarie086

chuckm

Mathman

Bennett

Buttercup

SXTN

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