Which skating videos are systematically taken out from Youtube?

Just wondering.

I've recently noticed that many skating videos are taken out from Youtube seemingly for copyright issues, whereas some still remain there.

I've sort of heard of an influence of icenetwork although I haven't really read much of the(se) thread(s).

Do they have any specific criteria? For example, should I be more careful about videos from recent comps?

This question is being discssed with great vigor in these two threads. The posts by Antman (who is a lawyer specializing in intellectual property law) are especially informative, although other posters hold vehemently to opposing views.

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25523

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25515

Thanks MM for your links! I reviewed them!

I still have two questions:

1. I read that they take down the ones covered by Eurosports and CBC. Is it basically like every video by any broadcast sources that is supposed to be gone?

2. Are they taking down only recent ones or do they also take down old ones before the IN era? If the latter is the case, when did they start their coverage?

Regarding alternative sources:

1. Someone suggested going to the Eurosport website. I tried going to Eurosport UK & Ireland video section. But I could not locate any FS videos. If anyone knows how to do that, I'd appreciate your info.

2. I also watched some videos on CBC website last season.

Bennett said:

1. I read that they take down the ones covered by Eurosports and CBC. Is it basically like every video by any broadcast sources that is supposed to be gone?

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yes - not due to COPYright but BROADCAST rights.

2. Are they taking down only recent ones or do they also take down old ones before the IN era? If the latter is the case, when did they start their coverage?

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They are requesting only the last two seasons be taken down - ie the two seasons IN has been around to broadcast ISU events. However - if multiple vids fall under the 'forbidden' content the person's account may be suspended/banned... in that case ALL of their vids (skating and other wise) are also taken down. It's not IN's doing, it's Youtube's.

Tonichelle said:

yes - not due to COPYright but BROADCAST rights.

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Toni, as you may have seen on the other thread, Youtube can selectively offer content to certain countries: I was just blocked from viewing something yesterday because it's not available for the country I'm in.

The decision on whether to restrict content or remove it completely, as explained by Doris (based on Youtube's policies) is up to the copyright holder. Since IN is not the copyright holder for Eurosport and CBC coverage, I really don't see how they have any right to have those videos competely removed rather than just being blocked within their market. By getting those videos removed rather than just restricted, IN is certainly contributing to users' accounts being blocked.

Bennett - I think you'd need to get the Eurosport internet player or whatever it's called; there's a link on the main page of the Eurosport UK website. It costs something like 5 pounds a month and I think offers VOD. I can't get it because my internet connection at home is slower than what it requires.

Thank you Toni and Buttercup for your information! I very much appreciate your kindness as always.

Buttercup said:

The decision on whether to restrict content or remove it completely, as explained by Doris (based on Youtube's policies) is up to the copyright holder. Since IN is not the copyright holder for Eurosport and CBC coverage, I really don't see how they have any right to have those videos competely removed rather than just being blocked within their market. By getting those videos removed rather than just restricted, IN is certainly contributing to users' accounts being blocked.

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I'm only just catching up on posts since friday so i've only dipped into that thread but found it interesting that Copyright owners can select the action they want. If indeed youtube can block videos by country then it does appear that IN are being heavy handed in their reaction.

I also agree with you that the argument that they are "copyright holder" in relation to videos that are not copied directly from IN is fairly weak. It depends on what (if any ) definition of "copyright holder" is at youtube. "Copyright holder" may mean the owner of the copyright in the original footage, or the holder of exclusive rights to broadcast copyright material. Don't forget that at the GPs there is very likely to be one master feed that is licensed to each broadcaster who is interested and they are then allowed to brand the feed and provide commentary etc. But the actual picture is the same. All licensees have to to play nice with the producer of the master feed!

In any event it does seem pretty harsh but then i can't really see how the youtube account owner has any chance to defend him/herself. Imagine the following interaction:

Youtube account user finds that some of his eurosport footage of a GP uploaded to youtube has been taken down as a result of IN's actions. Youtube account user complains to youtube that IN only has exclusive internet broadcast rights in the US and therefore the video should not have been taken down, rather blocked to the US. Youtube replies - but you have copied Eurosport footage for which you have no consent, you don't own the copyright in the europsort footage and are therefore in breach of our user terms by posting copyrighted material of which you are not the owner nor do you have consent to copy.

Where can the youtube account user take that? The fact remains that copyrighted material has been uploaded without the conset of the copyright owner. Whether or not the owner complains is moot, unless the copyright owner provides consent to the uploader of the material.

I suspect the best (and likely) only way that IN's heavy handed approach would be if Eurosport itslef officially takes the line that it seems to be taking which is "any advertising is good advertising" (given that their logo appears prominantly in all their coverage - it is all good advertising, that and the fact that the commentating team of Nicky, Chris and Simon is gaining much infammy (sp?) as fantastic commentators) then Eurosport should form that policy and then get in touch with youtube to challenge the approach taken by IN.

At the end of the day Eurosport could take this even further up the chain by going directly to the ISU to complain. I have no doubt that the Eurosport contract is worth far more to the ISU than the IN contract. Eurosport simply have deeper pockets.

Ant

Ant, thanks for giving us a legal perspective. I agree that once a video has been removed, unless it's a spectator-shot one, there's no real basis for a user complaint because someone's copyright is being infringed. But then if it shouldn't have been removed to begin with because the copyright holder doesn't mind...

I don't know how much money ES spends on figure skating. It can't be that much considering how often the pre-empt the coverage or don't bother to show events for which they have rights. :scowl:

Buttercup said:

Ant, thanks for giving us a legal perspective. I agree that once a video has been removed, unless it's a spectator-shot one, there's no real basis for a user complaint because someone's copyright is being infringed. But then if it shouldn't have been removed to begin with because the copyright holder doesn't mind...

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But the only way to prove that the copyright owner doesn't mind their footage being on youtube is to have a consent from them. Personally i don't upload anything onto youtube but someone who does and could be bothered might be prompted to write to Eurosport with a proposal to upload a number of videos and requesting their express consent. Not sure if they would ever get that consent. It would likely need some form of board and/or director approval.

Buttercup said:

I don't know how much money ES spends on figure skating. It can't be that much considering how often the pre-empt the coverage or don't bother to show events for which they have rights. :scowl:

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Ha! Isn't that the truth! However, given the amount of skating they show i.e. the whole of the worlds competition etc when they do show it, I think they must provide the lion's share of the money for TV rights to the ISU - baring in mind they have broacdasts all over Europe and then also continental versions of the channels (though i don't know if they show skating on those channels).

Ant