Free Dance Results

dancemaster said:

the technical elements yes you can especially the base value mark in the OD
e.g highest base value for seniors was Scali with 26.90
juniors was hills with 26.80

and the FD you have to add 4 point to the junior mark for the extra lift the seniors have
the seniors Whites 42
juniors Kudashev 38+4= 42 even juniors top mark was = to seniors top mark

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OK, let's see if this makes sense.
Shibutani FD 79.30 (ESP) +4 (if skated senior) = 83.30
N/B FD at Skate Canada 77.19
W/B FD at Skate Canada 68.69
S/G FD at Skate America 78.61

This means Shibutani would have scored 6-15 points higher than these top Senior teams?? My question was the JGP scores maybe more generous than the senior competitions. The math may not work that way??

And we're not talking about comparing these junior teams with the "worst senior teams" Shibutani also did not medal at the JGF. What if we compare the top three from the JGF?? These senior teams would have been probably 7th-10th in FD at US Nationals??

samba said:

OK, let's see if this makes sense.
Shibutani FD 79.30 (ESP) +4 (if skated senior) = 83.30
N/B FD at Skate Canada 77.19
W/B FD at Skate Canada 68.69
S/G FD at Skate America 78.61

This means Shibutani would have scored 6-15 points higher than these top Senior teams?? My question was the JGP scores maybe more generous than the senior competitions. The math may not work that way??

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I don't think you can compare the PCS from Juniors to senior or from one competition to the other
the PCS mark will change based on the mix of the event at the time
only the base value mark.on technical elements one can compare ( even that will depend how the couple skate on the day)

icedance1234 said:

Ekaterina RIAZANOVA / Jonathan GUERREIRO RUS WAS robbed big time

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I know it's a bit late but i just found the time to post my view on the final as i watched it live.
Overall i was impressed with the level of skating from the top 3-4 junior couples all were reasonably strong and didn't look much weaker in the technical elements then the Seniors.

In first place i would have had Raizanova/ Guerreiro . Not only were they very powerful and dynamic but they were also very expressive. Being a powerful skater is not about doing 10 cross overs and a few toe step and then gliding along the board's in a pretty pose!!

Powerful skating is when a couple can pick up speed out of nowhere and not only with cross overs but with a variety of difficult turns and transitions. That's one of the things I thought put them above the rest. Because both Chock/ Zuerlein and the Shabutani's had a very disturbing amount of cross overs and a lot of skating without the use of dance holds . For this it is difficult to understand were these two couples deserved such high marks for Linking Footwork/Movements, Choreography and even Skating Skills.



However Raizanova / Guerreiro didn't skate perfect some of there lines in step sequences were a bit out of whack and I also thought that there spin could have been faster. They were penalized harshly by the technical panel , they first received a level three straight line lift because the lifted partners pose wasn't held for three seconds and for that same lift they also received a minus 1 deduction for over holding it. After watching it on tape it is evident that the pose was to short, but it was definitely no more that 6 seconds so i can't see were the referee found the deduction. Then the panel down graded there first part of the combo lift because they found that the upside down position wasn't difficult enough , however at all the competitions it was level 4. Step sequences are always questionable so it is difficult to say whether or not it was level 2 or 3 you have to watch it on slow motion. But I thought that there steps were no less recognizable then both of the couples placed ahead of them. But even if they were to have all those levels downgraded for whatever reason, I still think in terms of components and GOE they should still be ahead of both Chock/ Zuerlein and the Hubbels.

On second I would have and the Hubbels. The Hubbels because they skated strong and you felt that they meant business and have strong elements when they perform them well.They didn't make any HUGE error's. But as far as programs and interpretation I think in this program they looked weaker then then Raiznova/ Guerreiro. It is really odd for me to be saying this as I really love the Hubbels. But on the day they didn't do themselves justice. There first set of twizzles was very far apart and wasn't well synchronized , strangely the judges still gave them positive GOE. Their step Sequences have speed but they were very sloppy with their legs and on some turns their edges looked a bit shaky compared to their performance in Cape Town. They also had a Minor error on the spin when in the first position Keifer's leg began to drop and there position therefore wasn't held for long enough so it was downgraded to level 3 , however not many of the judges gave them negative GOE which is difficult to understand as it was a error. Even there program this year looks like a bit of there last years free dance , a bit of Samuelson / Bates free dance from last year and even a bit of Samuelson / Bates free dance this year. Even the Music is from the same artist as Samuelson / Bates , it just has a different tone to it . Either there Coaches really love this artist's music or the coaches have very little creativity or possibly both. I hope that at Nationals and junior world's they will be able to show themselves in a different light.

Third which a huge grad from the top two I would have had Chock / Zuerlein. There program flows when skated well. They have some good and effective lifts especially the Khokhlova / Novitski lift. The step sequences were skated on reasonably bold lobes. However you didn't need to watch it in slow motion to see that there diagonal was no level 4 , There were a few turns missing from both partners Madison didn't have a bracket in the one foot section her entry and exit edges were a bit flat and Greg jumped in both the one foot section on the counter. It was also strange how the technical panel was able to call there first part of the combo lift level 4 as the lifted partner's position is meant to be a change of pose , a change of pose is only considered difficult if the lifted partner fully changes her position not just moves from one side to another , in there case i found that she didn't actually change her pose fully enough. They made a huge error on there set of twizzles, Madison put her foot down on they second set of twizzles. Now according to the rules if there is a stumble with additional support ( hands or feet ) then the GOE MUST be in minus and the twizzles should be downgraded by 2 grades ,only 5 judges gave minus 1 , one judge gave a 0 and four judges gave positive GOE ( plus 1). Did they blink during the twizzles? The technical panel did down grade there last rotation lift I'm not sure why as there are a few reason's either because there was no difficult or creative entry or because he didn't finish the needed rotation's for level 4.


Nevertheless , They did look polished and had the best lines at times and I do think that they have improved allot since the last time I saw them at Lake Placid this year. However many people have been talking about there expression and connection on forums. You can call me what ever you want but expression is not posing on a spot for 35-40 seconds and it's not about grabbing your partner's head and shaking it.

There are programs that are fast and dynamic like Raizanova and Guerreiro's and there are Romantic and tragic programs like Chock and Zuerlien's. I found that Raizanova / Guerreiro showed me their program , I got the message and really enjoyed it . Chock / Zuerlein had a lot of very nice movements in their program as well as nice poses but I don't think they actually felt what they were doing. Were as for example when Virtue / Moir do a Romantic program I actually believe them and sit and enjoy it as i did in the times of Torvil / Dean. I might be being harsh to them but it is unfair to there competitor's that they can make such serious mistakes and only get slightly penalised and if they won't to take such serious programs and try and win competitions with them then they must be able to make you believe in what there showing is true.

I do agree with icedance1234 that C/Z and Shib's had lots of cross over when compared with H/H and R/G's programs. I guess when they have more cross over than footworks or other stuff in between elements, gave them higher PCS?? The more I looked at Igor's programs (except D/W and V/M), they seem to be the same, lots of cross over. The packed programs like H/H made them slow down which cause lower PCS.

icedance1234, Thanks so much for posting your detailed impressions of the event! There is no substitute for seeing it live, for sure!

samba said:

I do agree with icedance1234 that C/Z and Shib's had lots of cross over when compared with H/H and R/G's programs. I guess when they have more cross over than footworks or other stuff in between elements, gave them higher PCS?? The more I looked at Igor's programs (except D/W and V/M), they seem to be the same, lots of cross over. The packed programs like H/H made them slow down which cause lower PCS.

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Cross Overs rule!! even in Singles. They show speed. Intricate footwork can hamper speed. Some judges are more impressed with speed than footwork and vise versa for other judges. Coaches should work on non-intricate footwork to maintain good speed.

I agree with icedance1234, I wish The Hubbells would find an outside choregrapher. Iouri Tchesnitchenko seem to lack of new ideas and try to turn them into new Samuelson & Bates.
H&H are lyrical and passionate skaters. This program doesn't suit them as much as their "Canto Alla Vita" (which was PERFECT for them) or the "Tango", or even "Apocalyptica" which was a program not even polished.
I hope they'll do a "Waltz" or a "Blues" program in the future. They had a very good Midnight Blues in 2007.

Are you going to Nationals this year too Joesitz? If so, cheer for them

rosee said:

I agree with icedance1234, I wish The Hubbells would find an outside choregrapher. Iouri Tchesnitchenko seem to lack of new ideas and try to turn them into new Samuelson & Bates.
H&H are lyrical and passionate skaters. This program doesn't suit them as much as their "Canto Alla Vita" (which was PERFECT for them) or the "Tango", or even "Apocalyptica" which was a program not even polished.
I hope they'll do a "Waltz" or a "Blues" program in the future. They had a very good Midnight Blues in 2007.

Are you going to Nationals this year too Joesitz? If so, cheer for them

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I will cheer H&H at Natiionals from a vantage point, I hope. I will be sitting in a section directly across from the judges in row 5. Anything closer could mean a camera is in the way.

I can't see B&A and D&W not placing in slots gold and silver, but I do think the bronze slot is up for grabs. I do like S&B and N&B for different reasons so how can H&H fit in there at their first Senior Nats?

My thoughts on Skate Dance judging, at internationals as well, is that the same judges have their opinons of the teams before the contest begins. At judging time, they look for confirmation that there were no mistakes by their pre-choices. JMO

btw. Will you be at Cleveland?

rosee said:

I agree with icedance1234, I wish The Hubbells would find an outside choregrapher. Iouri Tchesnitchenko seem to lack of new ideas and try to turn them into new Samuelson & Bates.
H&H are lyrical and passionate skaters. This program doesn't suit them as much as their "Canto Alla Vita" (which was PERFECT for them) or the "Tango", or even "Apocalyptica" which was a program not even polished.
I hope they'll do a "Waltz" or a "Blues" program in the future. They had a very good Midnight Blues in 2007.

Are you going to Nationals this year too Joesitz? If so, cheer for them

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ITA. People always talk about Team Sphilband being unoriginal, but AFAIR, he's never given two such similar programs two seasons in a row. The Hubbells are, IMO, much more dynamic than Samuelson/Bates; they're very different teams and shouldn't be using such similar music. I loved their Apocalyptica, it really seemed to suit them and I was really, really hoping they would keep it for this season (reworking some of the choreography of course, but still keeping it).

I could definitely see them doing blues. And I hope that both the Hubbells and Samuelson/Bates get outside choreography-for the latter it might help me warm up to them as I've not been able to yet.

Actually, I'd like to see D/W get outside choreography as well. Or at least, could Igor and Marina collaborate with Tom Dickson? I think that would be an amazing combination.

What does everyone think of Summersett/Gilles' chances? I know it's not likely, but they are my choice for bronze. They have two amazing dances this season.

I agree with Joe 100%, Dance are pre- judged before the event started. They looked at their rank and their international performances. It 's almost 100% that if there're no major mistakes at Nats., B/A,D/W and S/B will be on the podium base on their SGP results. Last year I've heard rumor that the judges were looking at S/B placed at 4th prior to their FD. S/G are good but base on their Skate America result, I don't think that USFS want them to go to Worlds. For N/B, sadly, their days are over.

Joesitz said:

btw. Will you be at Cleveland?

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Unfortunaly, no! It's way too far for me.

I could definitely see themdoing blues. And I hope that both the Hubbells and Samuelson/Bates get outside choreography-for the latter it might help me warm up to them as I've not been able to yet.

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I agree. S&B are just so bland to me. But I heard they are more Latin than lyrical skaters...Their choregraphy (I should say lack of) really annoys me this year.
About H&H's FD this year, I think that even if their music is from the same singer as S&B's FD, it has the potential to be different, the songs and their themes are very different but it doesn't seem like their choregrapher tried to do it. I would have put more "Eastern moves" in their FD, not just a few at the begining.

What does everyone think of Summersett/Gilles' chances? I know it's not likely, but they are my choice for bronze. They have two amazing dances this season.

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Talk about good choregraphy! Theses two have great programs IMO :yes: . But I think that their elements are not strong enough and somehow I think that USFS see S&B as the "team of the future" and will want to send them to worlds.

rosee said:

Unfortunaly, no! It's way too far for me.


I agree. S&B are just so bland to me. But I heard they are more Latin than lyrical skaters...Their choregraphy (I should say lack of) really annoys me this year.
About H&H's FD this year, I think that even if their music is from the same singer as S&B's FD, it has the potential to be different, the songs and their themes are very different but it doesn't seem like their choregrapher tried to do it. I would have put more "Eastern moves" in their FD, not just a few at the begining.

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I agree with this. Even though the music is very similar to what Samuelson/Bates had last season, the Hubbells bring a very different quality to it. I'm not sure of the exact way to put it, but they draw my attention much more than S/B- they have magnetism.

Maybe their choreographer should try something Latin for S/B? I'm trying to picture that and I can't really, but I'd probably like it better than this seasons FD. Might be just the ticket for making me like them.

Talk about good choregraphy! Theses two have great programs IMO :yes: . But I think that their elements are not strong enough and somehow I think that USFS see S&B as the "team of the future" and will want to send them to worlds.

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One thing I noticed at SA was they were really lacking in speed. Do you think increased power would help? I just love their dances, especially the FD. Realistically I know it isn't really possible for them to go to Worlds, but I really like them. Same with Navarro/Bommentre; I really, really like them (if not their FD) but sadly they are being pushed aside it seems.

I am so behind the times! I only just noticed that the JGPF OD & FD were up on archive at icenetwork. I just finished watching the OD's and really enjoyed them!

samba said:

I do agree with icedance1234 that C/Z and Shib's had lots of cross over when compared with H/H and R/G's programs. I guess when they have more cross over than footworks or other stuff in between elements, gave them higher PCS?? The more I looked at Igor's programs (except D/W and V/M), they seem to be the same, lots of cross over. The packed programs like H/H made them slow down which cause lower PCS.

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Packed Programs should get a higher PCS,,not a lower one
specially in the Linking Footwork/Movement mark

ISU rules" Difficult ,varied and intricate footwork is required for both skaters
.For the Linking Footwork/Movement a program that relies heavily on the use of chasses and progressive runs,posing and one directional skating is considered to be less difficult"

dancemaster said:

Packed Programs should get a higher PCS,,not a lower one
specially in the Linking Footwork/Movement mark

ISU rules" Difficult ,varied and intricate footwork is required for both skaters
.For the Linking Footwork/Movement a program that relies heavily on the use of chasses and progressive runs,posing and one directional skating is considered to be less difficult"

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How many skaters can actually choreograph difficult, vaaried and intricate footwork without their coach and choreographer?

I would like to see a Part III of the competition where the skater must listen to the music he/she will skate to in approimately, 2 hours and not consult a coach or choreographer Then skate to it.

That would take care of their footwok sequence and their creativity at the same time. I think you would find most skaterss helpless with out their team.

Joesitz said:

How many skaters can actually choreograph difficult, vaaried and intricate footwork without their coach and choreographer?

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I really cant see the relationship of your comment to the criteria that the ISU set out for Judges and coaches to follow

Joesitz said:

How many skaters can actually choreograph difficult, vaaried and intricate footwork without their coach and choreographer?

.

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More then you probably give credit for
And if you have done some skating in your time you would be well aware of this.

Oh my...
hahahaa!!!...
This conversation seems to be getting a little bit out of control...I'm not a moderator but I don't think its fair for dancemaster to be getting all up in arms and making mean comments like this one.

More then you probably give credit for
And if you have done some skating in your time you would be well aware of this.

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I hate to be such a "party-pooper" but...just because you put a smiley face at the end of a comment like the one above, it doesn't mean you negate any inconsiderate behavior.

It is very apparent to me that you are a strong supporter of Riazanova/Guerreiro based on these and other previous posts (which is perfectly fine) but I think many of us that go on this board would like to be free of the negative comments towards other posters as well as overtly targeted, harsh criticisms of these skaters...They are kids!!!

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Just don't get carried away.
After all, this is Figure Skating...