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- Nov 7, 2008
I am sure Yu na got some hometown boost but right now Mao's program isn't more than sum of elements while Yu Na's program is more than sum of elements. That's just my opinion but it is possible that judges had same idea.
Ladies LP
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I am sure Yu na got some hometown boost but right now Mao's program isn't more than sum of elements while Yu Na's program is more than sum of elements. That's just my opinion but it is possible that judges had same idea.
I don't know Mao was cleaner but I must say that I think that Yu-na's program presentation wise is superior to Mao's. Just like Fantasia was superior to Miss Saigon last year...
It seems like the judges for whatever reason hit Mao hard for footwork/interlinking elements. In comparision to Kim and Rochette. Other than that Mao/Yu-na were almost tied on PCS.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2003
Yep, I totally I agree. I would have given Yuna higher PCS if I were a judge. I don't know what it is but I can't get into Mao's programs this season. I really loved both of her programs last season. Her transitions score was much lower than Yuna's in LP and that might be the reason I don't like her program. Just not well choreographed and not much in betweens until her step sequence. I don't like her SP either... I love Yuna's SP though.
In between's
I find the discussions of the transitions and in-betweens with some of the posters really interesting and rewatched the rest of the skaters.
Caro has a lot of crossovers. I wonder if it is her attempt to hit the beat of the music, but the number of crossovers becomes numerous going into the second flip. Yet, she also has nice little linkage turns. Though simple and few, they go very well with the music. She also has nice choreos that pick nuances of the music very well.
It seems that Miki needs less crossovers than Caro going into jumps. Yet, she nonetheless has very few linking footsteps. I actually do not know where the time disappears in her program. Although she spends like ten seconds standing and dancing in the middle, this is no more than Yukari and Caro. Does she need more time for spins and steps than others? I don't know. At this point of time, this program is still as empty as her 2006-7 LP yet in terms of in-betweens. But this is understandable because it is new. I hope that they have some time to develop this program.
Yukari. It seems that she needs little preparation going into the jumps. She has relatively less crossovers than others. But the use of the rink was also far smaller than the other skaters. I think that these may have something to do with her basic skating skills. But she has very nice dancing/choreos that connect the elements.
Yuna . Actually, she has no more transitional footsteps than Caro or Miki. What she has is effective choreos that use the upper or whole body. She isn't doing anything much complicated or difficult around her edges during her choreos. But her choreos are so extremely effective and tuned to the music, which makes the overall program so pleasant and enjoyable to watch.
Yet, I am not sure if these are supposed to yield a high mark on transitions. Transitional moves by definition do include the use of upper body and head. But my general understanding has been that footsteps and moves in the field are more important transitional moves because judging criteria include the difficulty of the transitions.
For that reason, I feel it more appropriate to reflect Yuna's in-betweens more on interpretations and choreos than on transitions.
Joannie's program may be most balanced of all. Mao's transitions depend heavily on footsteps and moves in the field because her non-stop waltz music keeps her always busy moving forwards. In contrast, Joannie's program has a good balance between foot steps and dancing.
She has very nice little turns/steps/choreos during the crossovers and between elements that hit notes of the music very well.
It terms of the amount and difficulty, I would say Mao's program is the most transition-loaded program. But regarding the overall balance, I love Joannie's in-betweens the best.
They are so extremely well-constructed and have a wonderful balance and variation.
I find the discussions of the transitions and in-betweens with some of the posters really interesting and rewatched the rest of the skaters.
Caro has a lot of crossovers. I wonder if it is her attempt to hit the beat of the music, but the number of crossovers becomes numerous going into the second flip. Yet, she also has nice little linkage turns. Though simple and few, they go very well with the music. She also has nice choreos that pick nuances of the music very well.
It seems that Miki needs less crossovers than Caro going into jumps. Yet, she nonetheless has very few linking footsteps. I actually do not know where the time disappears in her program. Although she spends like ten seconds standing and dancing in the middle, this is no more than Yukari and Caro. Does she need more time for spins and steps than others? I don't know. At this point of time, this program is still as empty as her 2006-7 LP yet in terms of in-betweens. But this is understandable because it is new. I hope that they have some time to develop this program.
Yukari. It seems that she needs little preparation going into the jumps. She has relatively less crossovers than others. But the use of the rink was also far smaller than the other skaters. I think that these may have something to do with her basic skating skills. But she has very nice dancing/choreos that connect the elements.
Yuna . Actually, she has no more transitional footsteps than Caro or Miki. What she has is effective choreos that use the upper or whole body. She isn't doing anything much complicated or difficult around her edges during her choreos. But her choreos are so extremely effective and tuned to the music, which makes the overall program so pleasant and enjoyable to watch.
Yet, I am not sure if these are supposed to yield a high mark on transitions. Transitional moves by definition do include the use of upper body and head. But my general understanding has been that footsteps and moves in the field are more important transitional moves because judging criteria include the difficulty of the transitions.
For that reason, I feel it more appropriate to reflect Yuna's in-betweens more on interpretations and choreos than on transitions.
Joannie's program may be most balanced of all. Mao's transitions depend heavily on footsteps and moves in the field because her non-stop waltz music keeps her always busy moving forwards. In contrast, Joannie's program has a good balance between foot steps and dancing.
She has very nice little turns/steps/choreos during the crossovers and between elements that hit notes of the music very well.
It terms of the amount and difficulty, I would say Mao's program is the most transition-loaded program. But regarding the overall balance, I love Joannie's in-betweens the best.
They are so extremely well-constructed and have a wonderful balance and variation.
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- Joined
- Dec 12, 2005
In regards to Mao, I think it is definitely in the realm of possibility for Mao to get a ratified 3-3 this season if she ditches the 3F-3Lo combo in favor of her much better 3F-3T. With the 3A-2T as one big scoring combination, getting one more point for landing a ratified 3F-3Lo over the 3F-3T just isn't worth it. The only problem there is that Mao would need to fit a 3Lz into her program instead of the 3T as a single jump (because she is already repeating the 3A and 3F). Right now with how quickly her jumps transition at the end from the 3T to the 2A then to the combo spin, there really isn't enough time for her to have a proper set up for a 3Lz (an insecure jump for her as it is), then check the landing in time to set up for the 2A. However if she just decides to stick to the 3F-2Lo-2Lo and ditches the idea of the 3F-3Lo all together... she could replace the solo 3T with a 3Lo (a good jump for her and less prep time and risk than a 3Lz) and then be able to do the 3F-3T combination.
Ideally... I think her jump layout should look like this: 3A+2T, 3A, 3F+2Lo+2Lo, 3S*, 3F+3T*, 3Lo*, 2A*. Base value would be a 52.05.
As for Yu-Na... While her artistic skills and interpretation are amazing, I would love to see her skate a program with a bit more variety in jumps instead of the three 2A program. It would be nice to see her replace one of the 2As with a 3Lo. It seems that Yu-Na has the most trouble on her 3S in her program. Does anyonne know if she has trouble with the 3Lo and 3S jumps in general? I really can't think of another reason for putting so many 2As in a program otherwise. I think the one disadvantage Yu-Na has when competing with Mao is the pressure on the 3F-3T combo. Mao can afford to miss on one of the 3A's and still contend with Yu-Na as far as TES, but Yu-Na can't afford to miss her first combo or get a UR on it and be able to come back and top Mao unless she has a miss on one of her big combos and another miss somewhere else. It's a good thing that 3F-3T always looks rock solid! But depending too much on one jump or jump combination is always risky... I think Mao learned that last season at the WC when she missed her 3A (maybe that was a prompt for her to put it twice in the LP, since now she can afford to miss one and still do well in TES).
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In general, one thing that has me thinking is how detrimental the getting an UR call is for a skater's overall score... especially since the UR or popping a jump is coupled with disastrous GOEs across the board. It almost makes more sense (for example in Miki's case when going for the 4S) to attempt to overrotate the jump and take the negative GOEs and -1 for the fall instead of the -GOEs on the base value of the triple. I think it may be time for the judges to start considering scoring the GOEs based on the underrotated or popped jump. For example, if a 3Lz gets UR, but has great air position and entry, why not score the GOEs based on a 2Lz instead of getting pretty much all -2s or -3s across the board? Just a thought.
Ideally... I think her jump layout should look like this: 3A+2T, 3A, 3F+2Lo+2Lo, 3S*, 3F+3T*, 3Lo*, 2A*. Base value would be a 52.05.
As for Yu-Na... While her artistic skills and interpretation are amazing, I would love to see her skate a program with a bit more variety in jumps instead of the three 2A program. It would be nice to see her replace one of the 2As with a 3Lo. It seems that Yu-Na has the most trouble on her 3S in her program. Does anyonne know if she has trouble with the 3Lo and 3S jumps in general? I really can't think of another reason for putting so many 2As in a program otherwise. I think the one disadvantage Yu-Na has when competing with Mao is the pressure on the 3F-3T combo. Mao can afford to miss on one of the 3A's and still contend with Yu-Na as far as TES, but Yu-Na can't afford to miss her first combo or get a UR on it and be able to come back and top Mao unless she has a miss on one of her big combos and another miss somewhere else. It's a good thing that 3F-3T always looks rock solid! But depending too much on one jump or jump combination is always risky... I think Mao learned that last season at the WC when she missed her 3A (maybe that was a prompt for her to put it twice in the LP, since now she can afford to miss one and still do well in TES).
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In general, one thing that has me thinking is how detrimental the getting an UR call is for a skater's overall score... especially since the UR or popping a jump is coupled with disastrous GOEs across the board. It almost makes more sense (for example in Miki's case when going for the 4S) to attempt to overrotate the jump and take the negative GOEs and -1 for the fall instead of the -GOEs on the base value of the triple. I think it may be time for the judges to start considering scoring the GOEs based on the underrotated or popped jump. For example, if a 3Lz gets UR, but has great air position and entry, why not score the GOEs based on a 2Lz instead of getting pretty much all -2s or -3s across the board? Just a thought.
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- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
according to the NBC commentary during the ladies warm up at Skate America Yuna's weakest jump is the loop and that she wasn't performing the jump until recently...
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2005
Thanks for the info.
I really hope she gets it! The only way to really change her program around would be for her to add a solo 3Lo instead of a 2A or be able to use it in a combination, since she is already using the 3T twice (2A and 3F combos) and the 3Lz twice (solo and 2T-2Lo combo).
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- Joined
- Oct 29, 2008
I read the loop is what gives aggravates her back problem.
I disagree with you a bit. I don't think there's a lot of pressure on Kim's 3flip/3toe. Mainly because first of all Yu-na is rock solid consistent with that combination. She's missed it twice as a senior, and it's never been downgraded... I think she's got all the confidence in the world when it comes to that combination, and it's clear that when she does that jump, she goes after it with absolutely no hesitation.
Also, in the long program, from what I understand Yu-na trains a 3lutz/3toe, and she actually has landed it in competition before. In her second year as a Junior when she was attempting her 3flip/3toe, she managed to have a shaky landing on her 3flip and didn't go for the 3toe, she just did a 3lutz/3toe instead. I'm sure Yu-na has trained for that situation and is prepared to add a 3toe to another jump if something happens.....
And really Yu-na's 3flip/3toe isn't her only important combination. Her double axel/triple toe is also incredibly important to her.
Plus, I think that until Mao is landing her 3/3's again, Mao's triple axels became actually incredibly important to Mao....
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- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
Bennett, it was a combination of the waiting time on some jumps - not as long as Caro's but not exactly short either - and spaces lacking in choreo in the program overall.
I'm afraid my grasp of the technical side and some of the terminology is not as strong as I'd like; I haven't skated myself in years (and was never that good at it anyway). I was writing of my impression re Mao's program, and I can't help that it did not look that intricate or interesting to me - though if it's hard for me to explain it in detail. Sorry.
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2005
I don't disagree with you... her combination is great and is always lovely. But ice is slippery and you never know. For TES scores, Mao is pretty safe even if she blows one of the 3A's and skates her program clean otherwise. But regardless of points, I would just like to see Yu-Na skate a program that is different from the three 2A program. Not that there is anything wrong with it, it's just nice to see skaters mix and match things.
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2005
Go Yu-Na and Mao
I am sad for Miki, cause there are times when she does the best programs and she is really very consistent but she does not get the scores that she deserve for her effort and performance.
I am sad for Miki, cause there are times when she does the best programs and she is really very consistent but she does not get the scores that she deserve for her effort and performance.
I agree I'd like to see Yu-na do the 3 loop. But once again Mao is only safe when it comes to TES if she's doing at least a 3/3 combo. If Mao were to blow her 3 axel, and not do a 3/3 combo, she would be hurting quite a bit.. An underrotated triple axel with a fall and no 3/3 would be disasterous for Mao.
As I said earlier if Yu-na doesn't hit her 3 flip/3toe can add a 3toe elsewhere. Heck, there would be nothing stopping Yu-na from doing two double axel/3toes... IF she were to mess up her first 3flip... I woudnt' say everything is over for Yu-na if she doesn't land that jump. I'm sure they have a back up plan in motion.
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Oh, no need to apologize. Thank you for trying to explain. I was curious on this subject because there have been a lot of people including judges who have expressed the same impression with yours. So I was interested in how that impression might be formed especially because I am most interested in the peforming aspect of FS.
Regarding the waiting time, a long entrance is reflected on GOE, rather than transitions.
Besides, different skaters take different timing going into the jump. Her entrances going into the flips may look somewhat tentative. But considering how big/difficult these combos are, i.e., a three jump combo and 3-3, they don't look particularly long to me. Likewise, 3A may take longer waiting time than easier jumps.
Regarding the spaces lacking choreos, I am not very sure which parts. I wonder if it may have more to do with the lack of "interesting choreos" that were mentioned earlier in the thread. As I see Joannie's program, the transitional steps and choreos have a lot more variation and various highlights using different tempos of music.
In contrast, Mao's is like a ball dance performance and her choreos are basically secondary to her footsteps. She has arms/upper body movements mostly along with the footsteps.
Furthermore, her music is also so fast and so repetative that they may give a relatively monotonic impression throughout the progam.
Therefore, the heavy amount of transitional steps and the accompanying arms and upper body movements may not necessarily be translated into an impression that she had a lot of interesting choreos.
These are just my thought.
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- Joined
- Nov 7, 2008
Even judges may not have clear idea of what "transition" really is. Different judges may have given her high score for her transition.
There are two contradictory views regarding Mao' program, Some ppl think her program is blank while some ppl think her program is packed. I think both sides are right.
There are two contradictory views regarding Mao' program, Some ppl think her program is blank while some ppl think her program is packed. I think both sides are right.
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Thanks for the info.
Yu-Na has kept trying to include 3Lo this season. Actually she tried many times during the GPF practice time. According to some people, she tends to pop when music is on but succeeds when she tries the jump alone.
In a local interview about a few weeks ago, she said that she would be happy to give up 3Lo if she could not do it but in reality she could not give it up because she could land it just as well as other jumps during practice. She admitted that it is just a psychological issue rather than a technical difficulty. In that interview she added jokingly that she would denifitely land it not to want to hear Yu-Na couldn't even land a triple. So let's just wait and see.
I agree that both would be right
Why her program looks more packed yet having fewer choreo/dancing parts at the same time may be partly because she spends like over 45 seconds doing the straight line step whereas some other skaters spend around 30-35 seconds. Although she is "dancing" using the whole body throughout the straightline step, these 10-15 seconds also could have been used for posing and just doing choreos.
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- Joined
- Nov 7, 2008
I agree that both would be right
yes, I wondered whether spending that much time and efforts in step seq is really good idea when she can use extra 10 seconds to regroup for 2nd part of program. Then again it might be just Tarasova's style.
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2007
There was exactly a discussion like that before Worlds, that Kim could ditch the Loop, that she would win anyway, even if she only had 6 Triples. I think some people already said back then that it's too risky to only plan with 6 Triples. But most were like, she will win anyway. And what happened? She missed the second Lutz - was left with 5 Triples. Had she done a Loop instead of a 2A she would have at least won the silver, perhaps even the Gold, depending on the GOE - the scores were that close.
And I don't worry the least about Mao's 3-3s. The girl who managed to fix her Lutz in a way, that doesn't make it an obvious Flutz anymore, the girl who put the Salchow back in her programs - a jump she hasn't landed consistently since Junior days, the girl who managed to fix her sitspin and apparently stabilised her 3Axel enough to be able to do it in combination - and all that in just one off-season - that girl can also get a 3-3 back on ice, that will be ratified.
You know, lots of skaters talk a lot: I want to do this or that, I want to be consistent on this jump and learn this jump, I want to include 3 Quads, I want to do a 4Flip, I want to do a 3Axel. Mao Asada doesn't talk much anymore - Mao Asada just does it.
