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Thread: Were the callers consistent in edge calls and downgrades?

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    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Were the callers consistent in edge calls and downgrades?

    What did you think? Personally, I felt confused after watching the ladies' competitions because I had an impression that the callers for ladies were rather inconsistent in edge calls and downgrades (e.g., Yukari's 3Lz in SP not URed? Mao's lutz not flutz? Did Yuna rotate everything except the ones that were downgraded?). But these are just my impressions and I wanted to hear what others with better knowledge and experience might have felt.
    Last edited by Bennett; 12-13-2008 at 08:51 PM.

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    This thread potentially invites [certain replies] and I will end up feeling not knowledgeable or tech-savvy enough to be a fan of the sport.
    I haven't watched lp yet, but during the sp, PJ didn't point out any ur except for Yukari's Lz which wasn't downgraded. And obviously, following the lp thread gave me ideas as to which/whose triples seemed ur to armchair critics.

    But in any case, just the fact that Yu-Na had a triple downgraded makes me think the calling was probably fair.
    Last edited by Tonichelle; 12-15-2008 at 12:56 PM. Reason: let's try to refrain from inviting those fans by calling them out, eh?

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    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Thanks I did not have any intention to invite a war. But I just felt so confused that I wanted some help. Even after reading the protocol and seeing replays, I often feel really confused. If they say that the edge was questionable, yes, they often look like that. Or I just do not have the access to the slow-mo with the right angle, and feel left out. When they do not call some of the questionable ones, I come to wonder if I were the only one who "saw" an UR and a questionable edge. Some of the called URs are too subtle to see. Then the edge also looks different seen by different angles. All so confusing. Then the potential inconsistency in calling within and across competitions makes things even more confusing, although I wouldn't necessarily mind some skaters getting benefits of doubt.

    Perhaps it's more sensible to just accept and understand that different folks, including the tech callers, judges, and arm chair judges, see different things and there will be no absolute agreements within and across competitions?
    Last edited by Bennett; 12-13-2008 at 11:14 PM.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Thanks...Perhaps it's more sensible to just accept and understand that different folks, including the tech callers, judges, and arm chair judges, see different things and there will be no absolute agreements within and across competitions?
    Since underrotation calls -- and non-calls -- are the most important factor in determining who wins and who loses, I think this is a sorry state of affairs.

    To me, it would be even more sensible to have a sliding scale where two and three quarters revolutions would not score less than one and three quarters.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Let's see the Instant Replay. The fans deserve that. Of course, there are some after the skaters finish their programs and await their score in the K&C, but I believe fans deserve to see all the elements as the judges do. There is enthusiasm in this Sport, and Instant Replay should be used. Failing this, then any discussion one reads on the Boards are meaningless. At least we can see the error and agree or disagree with the call, and boo the Tech Caller. I don't think that will happen, unfortunately, so the arguments she did/she did not continue on the Boards.

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    Custom Title McWicked's Avatar
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    I wonder if Kostner really rotates her jumps... was she called any UR???

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    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McWicked View Post
    I wonder if Kostner really rotates her jumps... was she called any UR???
    No, she wasn't called any UR. Which ones were you referring to?

    BTW, Miki received five URs in LP. But I couldn't "see" many of them and felt really puzzled.

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    Custom Title DragonPhoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post

    BTW, Miki received five URs in LP. But I couldn't "see" many of them and felt really puzzled.
    Me too. I had the same feeling.

    Indeed, puzzled is the word.

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    it's olympic season :D bethissoawesome's Avatar
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    I thought some of the callers for the Ladies were a bit off. I felt like I definitely saw several questionable edges from the ladies in their LPs... sometimes even a few per program depending on the skater, but only one edge call was made during the entire ladies LP (Yukari's Lz). For the most part, I think the UR calls were right on the money, except for Carolina's 3Lo? (I believe that was the jump) that she fell on, and Mao's 3F that she fell on appeared to be fully rotated from the angle I saw it at (but it was a difficult angle to tell by)... perhaps there were one or two jumps from Miki that were borderline (I felt terrible about her quad, it was so close.. maybe 20 degrees more). I was actually surprised that the judges looked at the double jumps in the combos for the ladies with such scrutiny, because there are TONS of competitions where the doubles following a triple jump (especially in 3-2-2 combos) look UR-ed, but are never examined. I was shocked to see that they actually looked over those so much this competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bethissoawesome View Post
    perhaps there were one or two jumps from Miki that were borderline (I felt terrible about her quad, it was so close.. maybe 20 degrees more).
    me too...
    I think the quad miki did was fully roated, I was excited at that moment; however judges disagreed with me what's the criterion....

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    i wonder whether sarah hughes would have gone as far as she did woth todays system. not dissing her but her jumps were always small and borderline

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    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    My ?'s were:

    - Yuna's last jump of the three jump combo not downgraded.

    - The level of the rotations of Yuna's 3T in the 3F-3T in LP looked similar to some of the other ladies' second jumps that were downgraded. I feel that neither should be downgraded.

    - Yukari's 3Lz in SP not downgraded.

    - Yukari's 3Lz not called for the edge (Hers lutz looks to me just as questionable as Mao's because she doesn't use the counterrotation and, depending on the camera angle, she looks like using the inside to take off. She indeed got an edge call last season).

    - Yukari's Flip called for the edge (I think that she's been using the same technique and has been getting inconsistent calls across different comps. She has a kind of wobbly edge going into this jump and is initially on the outside edge, but then her takeoff looks like using the inside. Besides, I don't see her using the counter-rotation).

    - Mao's edge in the lutz not called.

    - Mao's 3R in the 3F-3R downgraded (If the prerotation was included, it looked fully rotated).

    - Miki's some of the jumps downgraded.

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    ITA with Mao's flutz being forgotten in this event. Quite

    Same goes for her 2t at the end of her first 3a combo and both 2loop in her 3f-2l-2l combo. Huge toe-axel in the first case and major prerotation in the latter.

    As for her 3As, good call to ratify them.

    The caller's amnesia regarding Yu-Na's lip is also surprising after her whining during GP.

    Oh well. As long as those questionnable calls didn't have any major impact on the results... Both would still be top 2, based on the good quality of the rest of their skating at this event so nothing to make scandal with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McWicked View Post
    I wonder if Kostner really rotates her jumps... was she called any UR???
    I agree that in most cases Carolina rotates her jumps. However, I am pretty sure that some of those that she falls on, or has another serious flaw, are URed. Yet, she never receives that call, which is strange. I guess judges are used to the fact that she rather rotates jumps, so don't even bother to check her failed jumps properly.

  15. #15
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Regarding Yuna's flip, it may be a matter of inconsistency between different callers. There seem to be variability across callers as to what they think of "wrong edge" jumps. There were some discussions about the definition of the wrong edge on this board and one poster pointed out a narrow definition of lip/flutz by ISU, which may be affecting the variability between callers.

    If we had the same callers with her previous event, Yuna might have gotten the edge call again here because she is perhaps using the same technique acorss comps. But given that she got the edge call only at the last time, the majority of the callers seem to think that her flip is just fine.

    Regarding the impact on the results, I think it may be just a matter of luck. They are just lucky if the inconsistent calling and downgrades don't affect the final standing.
    Last edited by Bennett; 12-17-2008 at 04:19 AM.

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