Were the callers consistent in edge calls and downgrades?

Bennett · Dec 13, 2008

What did you think? Personally, I felt confused after watching the ladies' competitions because I had an impression that the callers for ladies were rather inconsistent in edge calls and downgrades (e.g., Yukari's 3Lz in SP not URed? Mao's lutz not flutz? Did Yuna rotate everything except the ones that were downgraded?). But these are just my impressions and I wanted to hear what others with better knowledge and experience might have felt.

Wrlmy · Dec 13, 2008

This thread potentially invites [certain replies] and I will end up feeling not knowledgeable or tech-savvy enough to be a fan of the sport. :biggrin:

I haven't watched lp yet, but during the sp, PJ didn't point out any ur except for Yukari's Lz which wasn't downgraded. And obviously, following the lp thread gave me ideas as to which/whose triples seemed ur to armchair critics.

But in any case, just the fact that Yu-Na had a triple downgraded makes me think the calling was probably fair.

Bennett · Dec 13, 2008

Thanks

I did not have any intention to invite a war. But I just felt so confused that I wanted some help. Even after reading the protocol and seeing replays, I often feel really confused. If they say that the edge was questionable, yes, they often look like that. Or I just do not have the access to the slow-mo with the right angle, and feel left out. When they do not call some of the questionable ones, I come to wonder if I were the only one who "saw" an UR and a questionable edge. Some of the called URs are too subtle to see. Then the edge also looks different seen by different angles. All so confusing. Then the potential inconsistency in calling within and across competitions makes things even more confusing, although I wouldn't necessarily mind some skaters getting benefits of doubt.

Perhaps it's more sensible to just accept and understand that different folks, including the tech callers, judges, and arm chair judges, see different things and there will be no absolute agreements within and across competitions?

Mathman · Dec 14, 2008

Bennett said:
Thanks...Perhaps it's more sensible to just accept and understand that different folks, including the tech callers, judges, and arm chair judges, see different things and there will be no absolute agreements within and across competitions?

Since underrotation calls -- and non-calls -- are the most important factor in determining who wins and who loses, I think this is a sorry state of affairs.

To me, it would be even more sensible to have a sliding scale where two and three quarters revolutions would not score less than one and three quarters.

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 14, 2008

Let's see the Instant Replay. The fans deserve that. Of course, there are some after the skaters finish their programs and await their score in the K&C, but I believe fans deserve to see all the elements as the judges do. There is enthusiasm in this Sport, and Instant Replay should be used. Failing this, then any discussion one reads on the Boards are meaningless. At least we can see the error and agree or disagree with the call, and boo the Tech Caller. I don't think that will happen, unfortunately, so the arguments she did/she did not continue on the Boards.

McWicked · Dec 14, 2008

I wonder if Kostner really rotates her jumps... was she called any UR???

Bennett · Dec 15, 2008

McWicked said:
I wonder if Kostner really rotates her jumps... was she called any UR???

No, she wasn't called any UR. Which ones were you referring to?

BTW, Miki received five URs in LP. But I couldn't "see" many of them and felt really puzzled.

DragonPhoenix · Dec 15, 2008

Bennett said:
BTW, Miki received five URs in LP. But I couldn't "see" many of them and felt really puzzled.

Me too. I had the same feeling.

Indeed, puzzled is the word.

bethissoawesome · Dec 15, 2008

I thought some of the callers for the Ladies were a bit off. I felt like I definitely saw several questionable edges from the ladies in their LPs... sometimes even a few per program depending on the skater, but only one edge call was made during the entire ladies LP (Yukari's Lz). For the most part, I think the UR calls were right on the money, except for Carolina's 3Lo? (I believe that was the jump) that she fell on, and Mao's 3F that she fell on appeared to be fully rotated from the angle I saw it at (but it was a difficult angle to tell by)... perhaps there were one or two jumps from Miki that were borderline (I felt terrible about her quad, it was so close.. maybe 20 degrees more). I was actually surprised that the judges looked at the double jumps in the combos for the ladies with such scrutiny, because there are TONS of competitions where the doubles following a triple jump (especially in 3-2-2 combos) look UR-ed, but are never examined. I was shocked to see that they actually looked over those so much this competition.

harmy18 · Dec 15, 2008

bethissoawesome said:
perhaps there were one or two jumps from Miki that were borderline (I felt terrible about her quad, it was so close.. maybe 20 degrees more).

me too...
I think the quad miki did was fully roated, I was excited at that moment; however judges disagreed with me :scratch: what's the criterion....

adamlondon · Dec 15, 2008

i wonder whether sarah hughes would have gone as far as she did woth todays system. not dissing her but her jumps were always small and borderline

Bennett · Dec 16, 2008

My ?'s were:

- Yuna's last jump of the three jump combo not downgraded.

- The level of the rotations of Yuna's 3T in the 3F-3T in LP looked similar to some of the other ladies' second jumps that were downgraded. I feel that neither should be downgraded.

- Yukari's 3Lz in SP not downgraded.

- Yukari's 3Lz not called for the edge (Hers lutz looks to me just as questionable as Mao's because she doesn't use the counterrotation and, depending on the camera angle, she looks like using the inside to take off. She indeed got an edge call last season).

- Yukari's Flip called for the edge (I think that she's been using the same technique and has been getting inconsistent calls across different comps. She has a kind of wobbly edge going into this jump and is initially on the outside edge, but then her takeoff looks like using the inside. Besides, I don't see her using the counter-rotation).

- Mao's edge in the lutz not called.

- Mao's 3R in the 3F-3R downgraded (If the prerotation was included, it looked fully rotated).

- Miki's some of the jumps downgraded.

northguy · Dec 16, 2008

ITA with Mao's flutz being forgotten in this event. Quite :scratch:

Same goes for her 2t at the end of her first 3a combo and both 2loop in her 3f-2l-2l combo. Huge toe-axel in the first case and major prerotation in the latter.

As for her 3As, good call to ratify them.

The caller's amnesia regarding Yu-Na's lip is also surprising after her whining during GP.

Oh well. As long as those questionnable calls didn't have any major impact on the results... Both would still be top 2, based on the good quality of the rest of their skating at this event so nothing to make scandal with.

Kinga · Dec 17, 2008

McWicked said:
I wonder if Kostner really rotates her jumps... was she called any UR???

I agree that in most cases Carolina rotates her jumps. However, I am pretty sure that some of those that she falls on, or has another serious flaw, are URed. Yet, she never receives that call, which is strange. I guess judges are used to the fact that she rather rotates jumps, so don't even bother to check her failed jumps properly.

Bennett · Dec 17, 2008

Regarding Yuna's flip, it may be a matter of inconsistency between different callers. There seem to be variability across callers as to what they think of "wrong edge" jumps. There were some discussions about the definition of the wrong edge on this board and one poster pointed out a narrow definition of lip/flutz by ISU, which may be affecting the variability between callers.

If we had the same callers with her previous event, Yuna might have gotten the edge call again here because she is perhaps using the same technique acorss comps. But given that she got the edge call only at the last time, the majority of the callers seem to think that her flip is just fine.

Regarding the impact on the results, I think it may be just a matter of luck. They are just lucky if the inconsistent calling and downgrades don't affect the final standing.

antmanb · Dec 17, 2008

northguy said:
Same goes for her 2t at the end of her first 3a combo and both 2loop in her 3f-2l-2l combo. Huge toe-axel in the first case and major prerotation in the latter.

I'm not sure the callers are bothering to look for toe axels anymore - Nakano at NHK had the most blatant toe axel on ever toe loop attempted - she opens her hips and plants the bottom toe pick with the blade completey forwards - the protocols do not reflect that.

Ant

gold12345 · Dec 17, 2008

Mao's lutz looks a little better, but it's still not a lutz. It's as if the judges are rewarding her for her slight improvement rather than the actual jump she is performing, which is not a lutz.

Bennett · Dec 17, 2008

gold12345 said:
Mao's lutz looks a little better, but it's still not a lutz. It's as if the judges are rewarding her for her slight improvement rather than the actual jump she is performing, which is not a lutz.

Although I am no expert, I also feel that it's not a true lutz. But Yukari's is just as questionable as Mao's lutz and she only got the call/"!" at one comp. So it may be considered to be an okay range.

Another possible explanation would be that callers may have seen her often/sometimes do a true lutz during official practices. Then they might have thought that she was just fine.

Were the callers consistent in edge calls and downgrades?

Bennett

Wrlmy

Bennett

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

McWicked

Bennett

DragonPhoenix

bethissoawesome

harmy18

adamlondon

Bennett

northguy

Kinga

Bennett

antmanb

gold12345

Bennett

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