Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 84

Thread: How Important is Music in Scoring CoP

  1. #1
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    20,185

    How Important is Music in Scoring CoP

    Having watched 5 lyrical male skaters in a recent competition, I am wondering what happened to the Candeloros?, the Plushenkos, the Yagudins, the Stoikos and even the Eldridges? Are the more macho skaters now passee?

    Lyrical skaters which I've seen in that competition tend to skate with nice flow but with little change of tempo except for crechendos(sp). The winner of that competition, btw, did have more change of rhythms throughout his routine, but the points he made up on the Technical, ruled out any necessity for music scoring.

    My theory is that CoP with its point scoring (and lack of musical interest) has skaters executing all the elements with tender care and not focusing on the dance of the single figure skaters. (I would think it also applies to Pairs and Dance as well.)

    I do recall that Musicality is mentioned in passing for scoring PC, but does it really? For a Sport which requires music, it is the most ignored factor in the CoP way of scoring.

  2. #2
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Kenai, AK
    Posts
    18,654
    well in the case of Evan Lysacek you have to actually SKATE WELL in order to make the final... he got hit with a lot of URs

    Joubert was in the final and he is anything but lyrical (or artistic for that matter).

    and I thought you said skaters aren't dancers? aren't you trying to have it both ways with this?
    Last edited by Tonichelle; 12-14-2008 at 01:52 PM.

  3. #3
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    4,880
    As to your first point (predominance of lyrical males), aren't you forgetting Joubert? But even granting your point, it's a strength of COP IMO that every movement has been turned into a point-getter so the men are encouraged to stress many elements besides jumps. I don't see a problem here (apart from rewarding falls but that's another story).

    I don't understand what you mean by this phrase:
    CoP with its point scoring (and lack of musical interest) has skaters executing all the elements with tender care and not focusing on the dance of the single figure skaters.
    If the males are as lyrical as you say, how is it that they are not dancing? I certainly think of skaters like Chan and Takahashi, Weir and Abbott as dancing. The first three are truly great dancers, and Abbott is getting there.

    Maybe with CoP dancing skills are seen as a nice extra - something to boost the impression a skater makes AFTER he's made sure to rack up points via the elements. But some skaters are good at racking up points without being good dancers, and in CoP they don't necessarily need them. Others are natural dancers and do it in addition to (or in spite of) having to master CoP elements.

  4. #4
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    222
    It (musicality, dancibility) seemed to work for Sean Sawyer.

  5. #5
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    20,185
    My point is, if you see skaters focusing on CoP and its point gathering, do you really see musicality in the scores?

    If you look at John Curry on youtube, you will see how a dancer/skater moves from one element to another without suddenly taking some added care to get his element just right according to CoP. For me, that stops the dance of the single skater and we do not need music for these elements. Curry's programs do not advertise 'watch this trick' but each element is executed as part of the whole choreographed program in conformity with the music. Some present day skaters do emphasize the whole choreographed musical program, but I don't want to open this thread to skaters who do, although one in particular is from Switzerland, and many Pros have well choreographed musical programs who emphasize the music theme rather than the elements of skating which they are quite capable of doing. Can these eligibles do it as well?

    Since fans rave about having music in the Sport, I don't see where it is scored. BTW, ballet-like arms are just poses while moving. Why not emphasize musicality to the PC line up as an equal to all the sub headings of the PC line up and not as part of one? I would even think of music as a Technicality in the Tech scores because you have to use it. I should think that it is all important to justify the need for music in figure skating.

  6. #6
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    3,749
    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    If you look at John Curry on youtube, you will see how a dancer/skater moves from one element to another without suddenly taking some added care to get his element just right according to CoP.
    Yes, but John Curry was unusual for his time as well. Look at Jan Hoffmann or Vladimir Kovalev or Sergei Volkov or Terry Kubicka or David Santee ca. 1976, and compare them to the skaters you see today. They'll be better at some skills and worse at others, but I don't think you'll see a big difference in the average level of musicality 33 years ago or today.

  7. #7
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Kenai, AK
    Posts
    18,654
    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Yes, but John Curry was unusual for his time as well. Look at Jan Hoffmann or Vladimir Kovalev or Sergei Volkov or Terry Kubicka or David Santee ca. 1976, and compare them to the skaters you see today. They'll be better at some skills and worse at others, but I don't think you'll see a big difference in the average level of musicality 33 years ago or today.
    I've noticed that myself in the last year watching stuff on Youtube... competitive skating was just as "boring" in some ways as it is now (ie more about the competition than the entertainment value) as it should be.

  8. #8
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    27,910
    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    My point is, if you see skaters focusing on CoP and its point gathering, do you really see musicality in the scores?...

    Since fans rave about having music in the Sport, I don't see where it is scored....Why not emphasize musicality to the PC line up as an equal to all the sub headings of the PC line up and not as part of one? I would even think of music as a Technicality in the Tech scores because you have to use it.
    As far as I can tell, music is explicitly mentioned as part of four of the five Program Components.

    In Tech, it seems to be part of the GOEs only for step sequences. Of the "buttons" for positive GOE is

    Good timing according to the music.
    For spirals, the list of GOE criteria includes

    Highlights the character of the program.
    For the five Program Components, only Skating Skills does not mention music explicitly. For Transitions the wording is

    Transitions ...(include) the use of blade, body, head, arms, legs as dictated by the music.
    The other three mention music prominently in the definition of the component, as well as throughout the judges' guidelines.

    Performance/execution. Definition: The involvement of the skaters physically, emotionally and intellectually as they translate the intent of the music and choreography....

    Style and individuality/personality: The distinctive use of line and movement as inspired by the music...:
    Choreography/composition. Phrasing and form: movement and parts are structured to match the phrasing of the music.
    Interpretation/Timing. Definition: The personal and creative translation of the music to movement on ice.
    The several subheading are

    Timing: Effortless movement in time to the music...through sureness of rhythm, tempo, (etc.)

    Expression of the music's style, character, rhythm....as motivated by the structure of the music: melody, harmony, rhythm, color, texture and form.

    Use of finesse to reflect the nuances of music...(by) bringing subtel variations to the intensity, tempo and dynamics of the music..
    So I would say that it is certainly the intent of the CoP to reward skaters who are able to bring musicality to their performances.

    How exactly this intent is translated into the judges' scores that we see on the protocols is another question.
    Last edited by Mathman; 12-15-2008 at 01:32 AM.

  9. #9
    ~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~ Ladskater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    4,677
    Quote Originally Posted by Ginask8s View Post
    It (musicality, dancibility) seemed to work for Sean Sawyer.
    Right On! It also worked for the "Eman" -Emanuel Sandhu as well.

    I am not sure if I am understanding this question, but music has always been an important part of figure skating. Even under the old 6.0 system music and musicality counted with the judges. There are two different types of skaters mentioned here - athletic and artistic. Even with the Sojko and Plushenko type of skaters, musicality is important as is music choice - in fact this is important for any skater. Figure skating has not changed that much over the years when it comes to music. I would disagree with the statement that music is ignored under the new judging system. Music is still a major part of a skaters program.
    Last edited by Tonichelle; 12-15-2008 at 02:19 PM. Reason: merging back to back posts - use the edit feature

  10. #10
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Watching the sunset
    Posts
    2,793
    I think that music plays an important role in PCS.

    When Miki skated to the same Giselle as Nakano, her PCS, esp. transition mark, was very low.

    In her new program, she had no more transitions or choreos than she had at her SA Giselle performance. But still received a decent PCS. I think it is because the stronger music naturally suited her powerful skating better and therefore the paucity of transitions and chores was less noticeable.

  11. #11
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,752
    COP limits the ability of the skater to skate to the music. So wouldn't it be unfair if they get punished for not skating to music by the judging system that at the same time is the one that limits the ability to skate to the music?

    Example: the number of revolutions. In spins, lifts, twizzles... I rewatched some older pairs programs recently and noticed that Shen/Zhao had a really effective way of doing the death spiral in their programs. In the Nutcracker program the second one they did was perfectly to the music, well integrated into the rest of the program - but under COP it wouldn't have counted, because it was short of revolutions. But at this point of the music more revolutions would have looked simply ridiculous.

    Who was the ice-dance guy who said after last Worlds that he managed to add the last twizzle despite the fact that the music was already on to the next element? Charlie White? That's another good example.

    Spiral sequences are one of the best examples. I am always complaining about all that lyrical-baby-blue-princessy music among the ladies (and to a a lesser extend among the pairs) - but the question is: Can you do an effective spiral sequence to e.g. the Presto of the Summer of Vivaldi's four seasons? No, not with the requirement that you have to hold this and that position for that long. The music is fast-paced and dramatic. At last Worlds Asada didn't hold her positions long enough in the spiral sequence and she was criticised for it - but if you rewatch those programs you'll see that she actually skated to the music and therefore her spiral sequence was too short.

    Spins are also a problem, often the required number of revolutions make it impossible that the music at that point suits the spin. Sometimes the music may ask for a quick scratch spin - but nobody will do it, because a simple scratch spin means level 1 and one spin box used.

    So I guess that lyrical skaters have an advantage, they look pretty on ice, their movements look elegant and fluent - the music provides a nice background.

    By the way, I would never say that Verner is a lyrical skater, nor is Abbott in my opinion. Abbott is a dancer, he skates to Tango, Waltz, lyrical pieces and Santana - he was an ice dancer and I think you can really see it, his Waltz program from last year is a favourite of mine, though I wished he had found his consistency back then because there is no clean version of that Waltz.

  12. #12
    it's olympic season :D bethissoawesome's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    NYC; Tokyo
    Posts
    495
    Believe it or not, I would say it's very important. I've skated my program for judges before with two sets of music (one I prefer which is a bit "different" for figure skating, and the same program only slightly different during the transitions and step sequence to match the music better that was more typically classical). My PCS scores were DRASTICALLY different and much higher for the program that was skated to the more typical music, even though looking back on the videos and even the feeling I had during and after skating was that I skated the "strange" program much better. As far as TES scores, I didn't notice any real difference worth mentioning... just PCS.

  13. #13
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Watching the sunset
    Posts
    2,793
    Quote Originally Posted by bethissoawesome View Post
    Believe it or not, I would say it's very important. I've skated my program for judges before with two sets of music (one I prefer which is a bit "different" for figure skating, and the same program only slightly different during the transitions and step sequence to match the music better that was more typically classical). My PCS scores were DRASTICALLY different and much higher for the program that was skated to the more typical music, even though looking back on the videos and even the feeling I had during and after skating was that I skated the "strange" program much better. As far as TES scores, I didn't notice any real difference worth mentioning... just PCS.
    That's really interesting and seems like the same phenomenon happened to Miki with her LP music change (though Giselle may be a typical classical, but a very difficult one).

  14. #14
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    20,185
    MM - Your list of music references for the descriptions of musicality are scattered about on paper. Are they actually judged in reality? or is it just another case of full faith and trust in the system and all the judges follow these descriptions along with all the other descriptions for scoring?

    My feeling is that music plays an enormous part in Figure Skating, and I don't think anyone would want it not to. However as said above it is judged by scattered notes, and does not play all that big a role as other Headings in the Definitions of the Program Components.

    My suggestion is: To move all those notes to a separate Heading called Musicality and let it be judged as Skating Skills, Transitions, etc are.

    Can you imagine? "She got a level 1 on her Musicality" But if that is what she deserved, that's what she should get.

    It is a musical sport, so let's really include it separately in the scoring and judge it on the skater's musicianship. Failing this, what is the rationale for using music?

  15. #15
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    UK - Manchester
    Posts
    4,913
    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    MM - Your list of music references for the descriptions of musicality are scattered about on paper. Are they actually judged in reality? or is it just another case of full faith and trust in the system and all the judges follow these descriptions along with all the other descriptions for scoring?
    The question in bold above cannot be answered by anyone except the judges. Do you know any? Have you spoken to them, do you know if they do? If not, then mistrust and scepticisim about the judges is a different side of the same coin that places trust in the judges that they are judging fairly and correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    My feeling is that music plays an enormous part in Figure Skating, and I don't think anyone would want it not to. However as said above it is judged by scattered notes, and does not play all that big a role as other Headings in the Definitions of the Program Components.
    Jo - can you tell us why you think this? Again, unless you are a judge, or know judges and have spoken to them, how can you know how the judge came to the conclusion that the marking of the PCS in each category came about because of other more important headings than musicality? I just don't understand how you can conclude that

    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    My suggestion is: To move all those notes to a separate Heading called Musicality and let it be judged as Skating Skills, Transitions, etc are.

    Can you imagine? "She got a level 1 on her Musicality" But if that is what she deserved, that's what she should get.
    To be honest i think you are deliberately making a joke, however, if Musicality became a separate PCS heading - you wouldn't be awarded levels like the elements are - that is part of the TES. Personally i'd be happy to see a heading covering just musicality, butit comes down the same issue - provided that the judges give it the correct mark rather than simply giving it a number in the same range as the other PCS. If the judges are not marking each heading correctl then scrap the heading - have one big nebulous concept of the PCS and let them award one mark as a place holder if that is all they are doing now...i suppose that's for another thread though!

    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    It is a musical sport, so let's really include it separately in the scoring and judge it on the skater's musicianship. Failing this, what is the rationale for using music?
    The rationale for using music is skating has been encompassed in the rules for ever. MM pointed out all of the instances where the music is relevant to the current skating rules. You, however, are skeptical that the judges actually mark these things, but have nothing to substantiate that skepticism. I'm all for adding a separate heading of musiaclity that could encompass the choreography - suitability of movement/lines to the music etc, would it bein addition to the already existing headings or would one go?

    Ant

Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •