Problems with skate judging? (Two Hersh articles)

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 16, 2009

gio said:
I think the flip jump didn't even exist back in the time Lutz executed a lutz jump. It's strange, cause the lutz is harder than the flip. :scratch:

I don't think that the outside edge take-off is an opinion, but a fact. Marina D'Agata (renowed Italian coach) always explained on TV that flutz and lip don't exist. From the inside edge is flip, from the outside is lutz. More the skater is on the outside edge, more correct is the lutz. Cause the most important aspect in FS are edges.

thank you Gio. Nice to hear about others who believe in what Alois contributed to figure skating. Praise to D'Agata!! :bow:

I strongly suspect the defenders of the Flutz can not do a proper Lutz, but I can not prove that. And like I said, Listen Warren, I says, one is not forced to do a jump that one can not do. Nobody can do a quint, as far as I know, so no one complains about giving it credit for the attempt, and btw, URs are attemps but they are penalized differently.

Medusa and Hshus When Rudy stepped on the Met Stage in NYC, everyone soon learned what a Tartar was. I think the origins are from Mongolia. No?

Mathman That is sin of omission that flutz people committ. They do not realize they are not doing this special take-off and without it, there is no Lutz. Forget about attemps. See my comment on URs above.

So Sunday I should be in Cleveland, if we do not land in the Hudson River. I'll see the R&R Museum and hopefully find a nice compilation of Roy Orbison tunes. A 4 octave singer, and knowing his tragic life, one can hear the pathos even in his compositions, as well as in his voice.

Mathman · Jan 16, 2009

Joesitz said:
So Sunday I should be in Cleveland, if we do not land in the Hudson River. I'll see the R&R Museum and hopefully find a nice compilation of Roy Orbison tunes. A 4 octave singer, and knowing his tragic life, one can hear the pathos even in his compositions, as well as in his voice.

Have a safe trip, Joe. If you've never visited Cleveland before -- if it weren't so darn cold this week the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame would be within walking distance from the Quicken Loans Arena (about half a mile).

I look forward to your reports on the new crop of novice and junior skaters!

Medusa · Jan 17, 2009

Joesitz said:
Medusa and Hshus When Rudy stepped on the Met Stage in NYC, everyone soon learned what a Tartar was. I think the origins are from Mongolia. No?

^^You are good. They are basically a mixture of Mongolian and Turkic people. Most of them are Muslims (as were Nureyevs parents, he of course wasn't really familiar with the religion because he was born in Soviet Russia) - that's the Turkic part. As far as I know the Tatars are the largest ethnic minority in Russia.

Mathman · Jan 18, 2009

Scott Hamilton weighs in

Here are some comments about the IJS from Scott Hamilton (in the right-hand column of this Davis and White article from the Detroit Free Press)

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009901180451

I think the demands that the new scoring has on what is put into these programs is hurting bodies. I think people are getting injured with much more frequency than in the past.

I think there are strengths to it -- so much of it is in your control and is indisputable due to replay....[but]

I think there's a lot of frustration with it, and I think it's taking the soul of the sport away.

He is still grousing about Lysacek's scores at Skate America. :sheesh:

As an example of [audiemces not understanding the scoring system], Evan Lysacek (2008 U.S. men's champ) had a five-point deduction for the downgrade of a triple axel -- it cost him Skate America this year. The audience had no idea what happened, and neither did I...

museksk8r · Jan 18, 2009

Another example proving how utterly clueless Scott Hamilton is. He thought Goebel would challenge Yagudin and Plushenko in Salt Lake City and now he thinks Lysacek has flawless 3Axel technique. "The lights are on, but no one's home" indeed. :rofl:

rain · Jan 18, 2009

I think the demands that the new scoring has on what is put into these programs is hurting bodies. I think people are getting injured with much more frequency than in the past.

I have to roundly disagree with Hamilton on this, though I do think it's a negative that kids are more and more getting injured. I just don't think you can remotely lay it at the door of NJS.

Where does the blame belong? Try looking at the addition of the quad into men's skating, which came well before NJS. Or how about when it became more or less required to have two triple axels in a program in order to be seen as a serious contender? Also well before the NJS. And lo and behold, we started seeing a lot more injuries. Think Stojko, and the premature retirement of Yagudin.

In ladies, how about the introduction of the triple/triple combo? Tara Lipinski, remember her? She blew out her hips for life, well before NJS. The first ladies triple axels were landed well before NJS (but fortunately have never become the standard). Or how about the age of Michelle Kwan when suddenly you absolutely HAD to land 7-8 triples in a performance to have a shot at the title. Also before NJS, and she's on the injured list as well.

My point is that skating has been going in this direction for a long time. Unless the powers that be start to further limit the number and type of elements allowed in programs (something I'm not totally opposed to), I don't see it changing.

museksk8r · Jan 18, 2009

rain said:
I have to roundly disagree with Hamilton on this, though I do think it's a negative that kids are more and more getting injured. I just don't think you can remotely lay it at the door of NJS.

Where does the blame belong? Try looking at the addition of the quad into men's skating, which came well before NJS. Or how about when it became more or less required to have two triple axels in a program in order to be seen as a serious contender? Also well before the NJS. And lo and behold, we started seeing a lot more injuries. Think Stojko, and the premature retirement of Yagudin.

In ladies, how about the introduction of the triple/triple combo? Tara Lipinski, remember her? She blew out her hips for life, well before NJS. The first ladies triple axels were landed well before NJS (but fortunately have never become the standard). Or how about the age of Michelle Kwan when suddenly you absolutely HAD to land 7-8 triples in a performance to have a shot at the title. Also before NJS, and she's on the injured list as well.

My point is that skating has been going in this direction for a long time. Unless the powers that be start to further limit the number and type of elements allowed in programs (something I'm not totally opposed to), I don't see it changing.

You totally nailed it, rain! Isn't it telling that the spectators of the sport have a better grasp on the realities and the shortcomings of the sport than the so-called "experts." Also, there's the issue of the technology in figure skating boot making. I don't think these boots were designed to handle all the wear and tear of learning multiple quad jumps and triple+triple combination jumps. Remember when Kwan's heel came off her boot when she fell on a 2Axel in the 2001 Worlds warm-up. I believe her father then had to personally nail the heel back onto the boot. Crazy! The many layers of leather inside the boots and screws attaching the blade to the boot are not able to handle the constant pounding that an elite athlete goes through for very long.

gkelly · Jan 18, 2009

rain said:
I have to roundly disagree with Hamilton on this, though I do think it's a negative that kids are more and more getting injured. I just don't think you can remotely lay it at the door of NJS.

I agree that the jump-related injuries were increasing throughout the 1990s/early 2000s.

If anything, I'd say that the new judging system has slowed the acceleration of the arms race in terms of skaters rushing to put more difficult jumps into their programs.

But it does encourage skaters to up the ante in non-jump elements with more flexibility moves and busier programs, which can lead directly or indirectly to other kinds of injuries than are seen from just overtraining difficult jumps.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 18, 2009

museksk8r said:
Another example proving how utterly clueless Scott Hamilton is. He thought Goebel would challenge Yagudin and Plushenko in Salt Lake City and now he thinks Lysacek has flawless 3Axel technique. "The lights are on, but no one's home" indeed.

Goebel was the Silver Medalist in the 2003 Worlds with some arguing that he could have won. He was badly hurting from a misplaced spine (injury) in 2004 and he left skating for a whole year. When he returned, Johnny Weir held the fort. Those are all facts.

I don't know of any comment from Hamilton about Goebel, and for what reason would he say that? Weiss was the one American to forge ahead but he didn't.

museksk8r · Jan 18, 2009

Joesitz said:
Goebel was the Silver Medalist in the 2003 Worlds with some arguing that he could have won. He was badly hurting from a misplaced spine (injury) in 2004 and he left skating for a whole year. When he returned, Johnny Weir held the fort. Those are all facts.

I don't know of any comment from Hamilton about Goebel, and for what reason would he say that? Weiss was the one American to forge ahead but he didn't.

You don't remember Hamilton stating on the NBC broadcast that Yagudin was "conceding the long program to Timothy Goebel" at the 2002 Olympics? Alexei was already a 3-time World Champ and Plushenko was the 2001 World Champ. At the time of the Olympics, Goebel had not even medaled yet at Worlds, yet Scott was carrying on as if the Russians could finish behind him in the LP. It was ridiculous! Skating is about more than just jumps, which is all Goebel ever really offered. Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu3s9aR079k

Medusa · Jan 18, 2009

museksk8r said:
You don't remember Hamilton stating on the NBC broadcast that Yagudin was "seceding the long program to Timothy Goebel" at the 2002 Olympics? Alexei was already a 3-time World Champ and Plushenko was the 2001 World Champ. At the time of the Olympics, Goebel had not even medaled yet at Worlds, yet Scott was carrying on as if the Russians could finish behind him in the LP. It was ridiculous! Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu3s9aR079k

Oh, I remember it! That's why I have the CBC-broadcast version on my computer and not the NBC one.

And Lysacek's jumping technique: I hope that Hamilton (and Lysacek for that matter) know in their heart that Lysacek's jumping technique is mediocre at best. It bugs me a bit that Lysacek said in his interview that the judges suddenly chose his 3A and decided to pick on it - the truth is that the jump looks scratchy 8 out of 10 times.

Mathman · Jan 18, 2009

I actually liked Scott Hamilton's commentary of the 2002 Olympics. His job is give his opinion, and opinions he gave!

In an interview on Good Morning America berfore the men's event he said that (in his opinion) Yagudin was definitely a step up from Plushenko even technically, and was miles ahead of both Plushenko and Goebel on the second mark.

In the actual live commentary (Plushy was leading with Goebel second when Yagudin took the ice), Scott said that Alexei was changing up his program (substituting a triple Salchow for an early triple Axel for instance), that he was skating conservatively and doing just enoiugh to win, and finally that he had conceded the LP to Plushenko and was just trying to keep his nose ahead of Goebel (who did three quads but made some other mistakes) to try to win overall.

When the scores came up and the judges unanimously thought Yagudin raised the roof and left the other two in the dust, Scott just said, well, I saw it as being closer than the judges did.

BTW, Scott was also interviewed the day after the pairs competition, before the investigation was opened that led the awarding of a duplicate gold medal. He said Elena and Anton were one of the best of all time, but that just wasn't their day. He said he counted four technical errors of varying severity, but mainly he thought they were just off their game. In particular he thought that Elena was fighting for everything and willing herself through the program rather than letting it flow. When asked about the judging, he just expressed mild surprise that 5 of the 9 judges saw it differently than he did (none of the "this is a disgrace" tone of the night before.)

wonderlen3000 · Jan 18, 2009

Mathman said:
I actually liked Scott Hamilton's commentary of the 2002 Olympics. His job is give his opinion, and opinions he gave!

In an interview on Good Morning America berfore the men's event he said that (in his opinion) Yagudin was definitely a step up from Plushenko even technically, and was miles ahead of both Plushenko and Goebel on the second mark.

In the actual live commentary (Plushy was leading with Goebel second when Yagudin took the ice), Scott said that Alexei was changing up his program (substituting a triple Salchow for an early triple Axel for instance), that he was skating conservatively and doing just enoiugh to win, and finally that he had conceded the LP to Plushenko and was just trying to keep his nose ahead of Goebel (who did three quads but made some other mistakes) to try to win overall.

When the scores came up and the judges unanimously thought Yagudin raised the roof and left the other two in the dust, Scott just said, well, I saw it as being closer than the judges did.

BTW, Scott was also interviewed the day after the pairs competition, before the investigation was opened that led the awarding of a duplicate gold medal. He said Elena and Anton were one of the best of all time, but that just wasn't their day. He said he counted four technical errors of varying severity, but mainly he thought they were just off their game. In particular he thought that Elena was fighting for everything and willing herself through the program rather than letting it flow. When asked about the judging, he just expressed mild surprise that 5 of the 9 judges saw it differently than he did (none of the "this is a disgrace" tone of the night before.)

I think the placement was fair at the Salt Lake for all the medalist. Yagudin, Honda and Gabel are 1,2,3 after the sp with Plushinko in 4th. In the LP, Gabel landed 3 quad but he fell on the 3A. Yagudin landed 2 quad and a 3A (can't remeber he had a second one in the program) and same with Plushenko and both are clean.

antmanb · Jan 19, 2009

wonderlen3000 said:
I think the placement was fair at the Salt Lake for all the medalist. Yagudin, Honda and Gabel are 1,2,3 after the sp with Plushinko in 4th. In the LP, Gabel landed 3 quad but he fell on the 3A. Yagudin landed 2 quad and a 3A (can't remeber he had a second one in the program) and same with Plushenko and both are clean.

I agree - I only saw the version with Scott's commentary recently and honestly do not believe that he really believed what he was saying - he was just saying something to try and keep the drama going even though anybody watching could clearly see it was completely clear cut. Not least because Plushenko would not only have had to beat Yagudin but he would also have needed someone else to come between himself and Yagudin in order to win.

The only other thing was that Yagudin was "clean" but the triple flip came very close to being a head banger!

Ant

Michelle'sFan · Jan 19, 2009

rain said:
6.0 didn't really present results that were that much more understandable to the casual viewer, ie, it wasn't always the cleanest program that won. And instead now we have a number score that adds up everything a skater does, rather than taking deductions and messing about with ordinals (does nobody remember how utterly incomprehensible this was a times?)

I have to disagree: I liked the 6.0 system because I could turn on the TV and look at one skater and see how good his/her score is. I didn't have to be watching all season to know what the current high score is. I know the "new" system is trying to eliminate scandals and problems but it is very complex.

Does that make since? I know under the old system that 6.0 was the best. Now, the difference between winning and ending off the podium is just a few points!

I know this is the system that they are using but it is not very helpful to a casual fan so it won't help selling the sport to an audience.

Problems with skate judging? (Two Hersh articles)

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

Medusa

Mathman

museksk8r

rain

museksk8r

gkelly

Joesitz (RIP)

museksk8r

Medusa

Mathman

wonderlen3000

antmanb

Michelle'sFan

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