Senior Men's LP

enlight78 said:

Patrick Chan was great but I still think it is going to be hard for canada to get three spots next year without kevin

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I don't get the fact that people believe Kevin has good chances to finish in the top 12. Based on what? Some quads ? That would not do the trick alone.
He would be killed on PCS's there, he cannot improve his speed and artistry in 2 months from now and there was no guarantee he would land those quads without two foot landing or UR either.

Glad to hear Ian did so well. I hope I can see his programs soon. I really liked him at Skate Canada. Despite the mishaps, he never let up, just kept giving it all his energy and enthusiasm.

Medusa said:

I thought that maybe Lambiel might have gotten some for choreography or interpretation at some time - but I didn't find anything. And since we established that 4CC 2008 was really overmarked, it seems to be really rare to get a 9.0. I honestly don't get why. They have till 10.0 and guys with really great choreography, interpretation and execution should be able to get 9.0 outside of Nationals and inflated events.

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I thought maybe Plushenko got some (undeserved) 9s at Olys but no, that was not the case. I don't know why judges won't give skaters whose performances merit it high PCS. It's like they're saving that mark - but why?

I'm sure Chan skated well but 165 for 6 triples, no 3-3s and no quad is kind of a stretch even for Nationals. On the flip side, I am curious about what it'll take for someone to get level 4 for a step sequence; if Patrick, who usually excels at footwork, can't get that even at Nationals, who will?

I am so happy for Chipeur!!

Thoughts on Men's National LP

I am a HUGE fan of Jeffrey Buttle and was quite unhappy to learn of his retirement this year (although for him, I am glad that he went out on top). So a bit of a dissapointment at his absence, but surprisingly enjoyed myself for the most part. I watched the CBC Live Feed as I don't have cable.

Patrick Chan gets a big and and from me. Although I enjoyed his SP a tad more, I thoroughly enjoyed his LP. If he continues to have programs like these, and performs to this level, I may forget who Jeff Buttle is. Great jumps, great spins, footwork, skating skills, etc. Definitely room for improvement (although I think that the triple flip was more of a brain fart. I'm expecting a clean performance by worlds). Definitely the class of the field, and the scores definitely indicated that.

Vaughn Chipeur: I'm ambivalent on him. He kind of reminds me of Jayson Denomee of years past. Good (nay- great triple axel) to start, and the jumps he did perform were really fantastic. He kind of fizzled at the end, and I wasn't too impressed with his choreography either. The spins, footwork and in-between skating was just passable for me. People are saying that he skates with speed but he slowed down considerably at the end (hence the J.D. comparison).

Jeremy Ten: I was actually quite impressed with his GP event. He did very well, and I think he has very good potential. Just needs to get more reputation with the international judges and to gain more experience. Very glad that did very well, I think he has a bright future. Choreography, jumps, spins, in-betweens were all good. Not Patrick Chan good, but I see good things if he keeps improving. A well-deserved podium finish (I would've probably had him scored higher in the LP and perhaps even bump him up to silver medal position).

Kevin Reynolds: I see in him reasons why I (at first) liked Mira Leung. Consistent, and seems like a good competitor. In this comparison, I also fear he may regress. His skating skills are comparable to her too, in that they are quite poor. He skates slow, and although he completed three difficult elements (quad salchow and toe, triple axel) there was no choreographic detail at all. Glad he apparently is working on his PCS, and I did like the last footwork sequence. He hope he works hard on that, because it would be nice to have a consistent Canadian man who has good skating skills. As big a fan as I am of J.B., consistency was not his forte. And God knows Emmanuel Sandhu was not the picture of consistency either.

Joey Russel: The biggest surprise for me. Definitely a big :agree: from me. Started off very well, had definitely jump lapses at the end. But I was enthralled with the way he interpreted the music, which was not easy choice to begin with. Definitely one I will watch in the future.

And as an aside:
Fedor Andreev: Biggest dissapointment this nationals. Definitely expected him to do more, and not do worse than last year. I know his preparations weren't ideal, but his programs to me were both really really good. And from the youtube videos it appeared he was getting his jumps in order, and his axels were things of beauties. Have not seen the SP performance yet, but was shocked to see him all the way down in 12th spot. I was definitely hoping that he would perform in the LP, but I was let down with how he opened his program :disapp:. I was thrilled how he performed the rest, and hope that although he isn't part of the national team that he gets assignments next year. I hope he doesn't give up, as I enjoy his skating quite a bit.

maharbaforwards said:

Kevin Reynolds: I see in him reasons why I (at first) liked Mira Leung. Consistent, and seems like a good competitor. In this comparison, I also fear he may regress. His skating skills are comparable to her too, in that they are quite poor. He skates slow, and although he completed three difficult elements (quad salchow and toe, triple axel) there was no choreographic detail at all. Glad he apparently is working on his PCS, and I did like the last footwork sequence. He hope he works hard on that, because it would be nice to have a consistent Canadian man who has good skating skills. As big a fan as I am of J.B., consistency was not his forte. And God knows Emmanuel Sandhu was not the picture of consistency either.

Joey Russel: The biggest surprise for me. Definitely a big :agree: from me. Started off very well, had definitely jump lapses at the end. But I was enthralled with the way he interpreted the music, which was not easy choice to begin with. Definitely one I will watch in the future.

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Kevin R. : Yes obviously has worked on the PCS but he really needs to work on his speed and edging first. Good choreography can't be realized without good speed and edging. Working on that will automatically make his jumps have more distance. He also needs to learn to jump his jumps instead of just spinning them. I think a coaching change would do him wonders. He needs more than 1 week with Tarasova.

Joey Russel: I have always liked his style since I first saw him as a junior. That said, it is worrying that he always seems to have these jump lapses. This is why he has bombed at Nebelhorn each of the last 2 years. His JGP record before that was not that great either. Love the fact he can tack on a triple loop to any jump he lands solidly. He has used the triple loop as the second jump with many combos with a variety of jumps as the first jump.

Of the skaters I too was impressed with Ten. He skates with great speed and flow, which is somewhat atypical of Mcleod coached students. Hopefully he can add an axel coach to his team as Mcleod is not the best coach of good axel technique.

Buttercup said:

I'm sure Chan skated well but 165 for 6 triples, no 3-3s and no quad is kind of a stretch even for Nationals.

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I don't think it's that much of a stretch. Chan's best international score this season was 156.70, for a much inferior performance. This is the first time Chan's landed two triple axels in the program, and one was in combo, so for the score to be 9-10 point higher isn't that outrageous — though there's always a little inflation at nationals, of course.

rain said:

I don't think it's that much of a stretch. Chan's best international score this season was 156.70, for a much inferior performance. This is the first time Chan's landed two triple axels in the program, and one was in combo, so for the score to be 9-10 point higher isn't that outrageous — though there's always a little inflation at nationals, of course.

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I thought Chan was overmarked in the LP at both of his GP assignments. As I noted earlier, Patrick Chan is a gifted skater with some real strengths (step sequences and transitions are the most obvious to me). But I think for guys to get scores in the 150s or even 160s without going for harder jumps and combinations is not good for figure skating.

Now, to be clear, I don't want it to be just about the jumps, but I think the way programs are scored right now are leading to diluted jump content in comparison to the past. It's progress for Patrick, and good for him if he gets his 3A consistent, but I'd like to see the top guys doing more.

Buttercup said:

I thought Chan was overmarked in the LP at both of his GP assignments. As I noted earlier, Patrick Chan is a gifted skater with some real strengths (step sequences and transitions are the most obvious to me). But I think for guys to get scores in the 150s or even 160s without going for harder jumps and combinations is not good for figure skating.

Now, to be clear, I don't want it to be just about the jumps, but I think the way programs are scored right now are leading to diluted jump content in comparison to the past. It's progress for Patrick, and good for him if he gets his 3A consistent, but I'd like to see the top guys doing more.

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You and I obviously have a fundamental disagreement, in that you seem to not consider the 3A a difficult jump. The only thing Chan does not have right now is a quad. He does have the 3A, which he landed 3 for 3 at this competition (consistency) and any 3A combination is a difficult one. So he messed up his 3/3 in the long. He did a gorgeous one in the short. I'm just not really sure why you're writing off what he did as simple. It was so far from that as to be absurd.

rain said:

You and I obviously have a fundamental disagreement, in that you seem to not consider the 3A a difficult jump. The only thing Chan does not have right now is a quad. He does have the 3A, which he landed 3 for 3 at this competition (consistency) and any 3A combination is a difficult one. So he messed up his 3/3 in the long. He did a gorgeous one in the short. I'm just not really sure why you're writing off what he did as simple. It was so far from that as to be absurd.

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I don't think it was simple; where exactly did I write that? I have also pointed out several of Patrick Chan's strengths and noted that landing two 3As is something for him to be happy about. I also don't think 3As are easy; I'm sure Stephane Lambiel will agree . You can see that I didn't write that, either.

But I do think that most of the guys who compete at the level Chan is at can do 3As so it's not special for a program to have two of them. And an elite skater should probably have more than one 3-3 in an entire event. I looked through several protocols from the last few years to back this up. 156 is a really good score. 165, even at Nats, is a really, really good score. I expect that kind of score if a skater is doing the hardest elements and doing them well, and at this point in time I feel Chan is doing the latter but not the former, so IMO, he is overmarked in some areas. There are some elements were I think he is judged fairly or even undermarked on occasion.

Chan's a very good skater and I expect more from the really good ones. I'll join the cheering section if he meets those expectations, not before.

I got a real kick out of Kurt Browning saying, in reviewing Chan's SP peformance beofre the final flight of the LP: "There was only one thing that took away from my enjoyment of that performance... and that was my extreme jealousy!"

Conrgatulations, Patrick.
He's staring to seem quite confident, while still completely grounded. Remarkable.

Buttercup said:

Chan's a very good skater and I expect more from the really good ones. I'll join the cheering section if he meets those expectations, not before.

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What would constitute special enough, in your opinion? A quad or two? That's really the only thing I can see that he doesn't have at this point. And no doubt if he meets up with a bunch of guys with quads at worlds it puts him at a bit of a disadvantage. I don't, however, think his lack of a quad means he can't be enjoyed and cheered for, and even win at competitions as he is now. That's not what constitutes a great skate to me, anyway.

Patrick's LP might be the most demanding FS that I've ever seen. Not one jump was done without a difficult entry, and not one of them wasn't landed with ease and beautiful run-out. Not only that, the rest of the program was jam-packed with difficult transitions (meaning no easy three turns or mohawks like some others). To see him still skating at top speed with beautiful deep edges through the last straight line steps was just amazing. I can't imagine how hard he must have trained for his stamina to complete a program like this. I was in absolute awe. This guy is SO amazing.

shine said:

This guy is SO amazing.

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You can say that again

So true, shine! I believe if Patrick ever skated that perfect competition, a la Jeff at 2008 Worlds in the SP and LP, he would be nearly unbeatable. It could be a close battle for gold between Chan, Oda, Abbott, Kozuka, and Joubert if they all go clean.