About jumps: comparing skaters of the past and of the present

gio · Jan 25, 2009

I noticed that a lot of present skaters in the Ladies category are omitting some jumps, or do not complete them correctly.
I wonder if that was always like that or if it is a worsening problem.

In the 90s skaters started to put all 5 triple jumps in the program. I remember Kristi always attempted the salchow, even if she failed most of the times.

But now it seems skaters just omit a jump (or even two) from the program.

gio · Jan 25, 2009

Let's make a comparision from 10 years ago and now. I don't know if all the info are correct.

1999 Worlds

Maria Butryskaya = 5 triples
Michelle Kwan = 5 triples (slight flutz, but she corrected it later)
Julia Soldatova = 5 triples
Tatiana Malinina = 5 triples
Vanessa Gusmeroli = 5 triples (but some salchow problems)
Anna Rechnio = 5 triples
Sarah Hughes = 4 triples (flutzing)
Elena Liashenko = 4 triples (I guess no loop)
Yulia Lavrenchuk = 5 triples
Viktoria Volchkova = 5 triples
Diana Poth = 5 triples
Angela Nikodinov = 5 triples
Lucinda Ruh = 4 triples (no lutz)
Alisa Drei = 5 triples
Julia Lautowa = 5 triples
Silvia Fontana = 4 triples (flutz problem and also some 3loop issues)
Yulia Vorobieva = don't remember
Jennifer Robinson = 4 triples (flutzing)
Julia Sebestyen = 5 triples
Fumie Suguri = 4 triples (flutzing)

2008 Worlds

Mao Asada = 5 triples (flutzing, but she has the 3axel, plus she included the salchow now)
Carolina Kostner = 5 triples
Kim Yu-Na = 4 triples (no loop)
Yukari Nakano = 4 triples (flutzing, no loop, but she has the 3axel)
Joannie Rochette = 5 triples
Sarah Meier = 3 triples (no loop and lipping)
Kimmie Meissner = 3 triples (lipping and flawed toe-loop)
Laura Lepistö = 3 triples (no flip and lutz-but she landed the 3lutz at NHK)
Kiira Korpi = 4 triples (I guess she doesn't have the flip)
Beatrisa Liang = 3 triples (flutzing and no salchow)
Júlia Sebestyén = 5 triples
Annette Dytrt = 4 triples (no lutz)
Valentina Marchei = 3 triples (no loop and flip)
Mira Leung = 4 triples (no loop)
Elena Glebova = 4 triples (no flip)
Ashley Wagner = 4 triples (flutzing)
Ksenia Doronina = 4 triples (lipping)
Viktoria Helgesson = 5 triples
Kim Na-Young = 3 triples (no loop and no salchow)
Elene Gedevanishvili = 3 triples (lipping and no loop)

Well, it seems that technically the situation in Ladies is deteriorating. But we have to consider that in 1999 judges weren't that strict in edge priblems and downgrades.

Mafke · Jan 25, 2009

I'd say the ISU jihad against slight underrotation is the biggest problem.

Underrotation is punished so much more than anything else (and so many ladies can barely get full-rotation as defined by the ISU) that it makes sense to just not do a jump you're not sure you can get credit for. Being sure of that extra two or three inches in the air isn't something that's easy to fix (as the strength training required could wreck the rest of the skater's technique).

I've seen other (non-UR) analyses (can't remember off the top of my head) that seem to show that skaters can max out their jump points without five triples, so if a skater has a problem jump (and almost all do) it makes more sense to just leave it out.

gio · Jan 25, 2009

Mafke said:
I'd say the ISU jihad against slight underrotation is the biggest problem.

Underrotation is punished so much more than anything else (and so many ladies can barely get full-rotation as defined by the ISU) that it makes sense to just not do a jump you're not sure you can get credit for. Being sure of that extra two or three inches in the air isn't something that's easy to fix (as the strength training required could wreck the rest of the skater's technique).

ITA with you! Underrotations are punished too much. They should give compulsory -2GOE, but with the base value of a triple and not of a double and -GOE. Obviously we are talking about slight underrotations.

I've seen other (non-UR) analyses (can't remember off the top of my head) that seem to show that skaters can max out their jump points without five triples, so if a skater has a problem jump (and almost all do) it makes more sense to just leave it out.

That's also true!
And it's because of this I think it will be fair to give a 1 bonus point to skaters that attempt all 5 triples (with correct technique) and/or an additional 0,25 in choreography and skating skills.

I think this still remains a challenging program with all 5 triples:

1.3Z, 2T, 2L
2.3F
3.3L
4.2A, 3T
5.3F, 2T
6.3Z
7.3S

Kudos to the skater that can do that! :agree:

Tinymavy15 · Jan 25, 2009

With the new system doing a jump textbook perfect is required. If a skater cannot do that jump perfectly, and gets deductions when he/she performs it, i don not see why the skater should perform it. In every sport, and in life you should play to your strengths. that is harder to do in the SP, when some elements are required, but in the Freeskate a skater should sell their strengths and cover up their weaknesses.

Blades of Passion · Jan 25, 2009

I agree with a bonus point if you land 5 different Triples cleanly (6 for the men, and a Quad counts towards that total for both Men and Women).

antmanb · Jan 26, 2009

gio said:
Let's make a comparision from 10 years ago and now. I don't know if all the info are correct.

1999 Worlds

Maria Butryskaya = 5 triples
Michelle Kwan = 5 triples (slight flutz, but she corrected it later)
Julia Soldatova = 5 triples
Tatiana Malinina = 5 triples
Vanessa Gusmeroli = 5 triples (but some salchow problems)
Anna Rechnio = 5 triples
Sarah Hughes = 4 triples (flutzing)
Elena Liashenko = 4 triples (I guess no loop)
Yulia Lavrenchuk = 5 triples
Viktoria Volchkova = 5 triples
Diana Poth = 5 triples
Angela Nikodinov = 5 triples
Lucinda Ruh = 4 triples (no lutz)
Alisa Drei = 5 triples
Julia Lautowa = 5 triples
Silvia Fontana = 4 triples (flutz problem and also some 3loop issues)
Yulia Vorobieva = don't remember
Jennifer Robinson = 4 triples (flutzing)
Julia Sebestyen = 5 triples
Fumie Suguri = 4 triples (flutzing)

2008 Worlds

Mao Asada = 5 triples (flutzing, but she has the 3axel, plus she included the salchow now)
Carolina Kostner = 5 triples
Kim Yu-Na = 4 triples (no loop)
Yukari Nakano = 4 triples (flutzing, no loop, but she has the 3axel)
Joannie Rochette = 5 triples
Sarah Meier = 3 triples (no loop and lipping)
Kimmie Meissner = 3 triples (lipping and flawed toe-loop)
Laura Lepistö = 3 triples (no flip and lutz-but she landed the 3lutz at NHK)
Kiira Korpi = 4 triples (I guess she doesn't have the flip)
Beatrisa Liang = 3 triples (flutzing and no salchow)
Júlia Sebestyén = 5 triples
Annette Dytrt = 4 triples (no lutz)
Valentina Marchei = 3 triples (no loop and flip)
Mira Leung = 4 triples (no loop)
Elena Glebova = 4 triples (no flip)
Ashley Wagner = 4 triples (flutzing)
Ksenia Doronina = 4 triples (lipping)
Viktoria Helgesson = 5 triples
Kim Na-Young = 3 triples (no loop and no salchow)
Elene Gedevanishvili = 3 triples (lipping and no loop)

Well, it seems that technically the situation in Ladies is deteriorating. But we have to consider that in 1999 judges weren't that strict in edge priblems and downgrades.

I'm not sure that a comparison of 1999 worlds and 2008 is that valid considering both were under different judging systems.

The first observation I would make is that jumping for ladies is restricted under COP where it never used to be under 6.0. By 1999 any contender for the podium was epxected to pull off a 7 triple program. That meant having all 5 triples and repeating 2. A 3/3 was not required to do this. With the maximum 7 jumping passes rule for the ladies under COP - with one having to be an axel type jump that leaves the ladies with only 6 jumping passes in which to get 7 triples (unless they can land a 3T or 3R on the back of a double axel). Unless the skater can do the axel combo or a 3/3 then she will not be able to get 7 triples out, that being the case she can leave one triple out if she likes. In fact it doesn't make sense under the current rules to do all five trilpes and repeat one froma points perspective - repeat the hardest two and miss out an easier triple is what makes sense.

Second observation is that your list from 1999 has not included any of the ladies who lipped their flips. Without watching the competition again i'm fairly certain that Volchkova and Malinina lipped and i susepct Butyrskaya also did.

Ant

flying camel · Jan 26, 2009

I did notice that there weren't a lot of girls trying the loop jump at nationals. Most everyone seems comfortable with just the toe jumps.

gio · Jan 26, 2009

antmanb said:
The first observation I would make is that jumping for ladies is restricted under COP where it never used to be under 6.0. By 1999 any contender for the podium was epxected to pull off a 7 triple program. That meant having all 5 triples and repeating 2. A 3/3 was not required to do this. With the maximum 7 jumping passes rule for the ladies under COP - with one having to be an axel type jump that leaves the ladies with only 6 jumping passes in which to get 7 triples (unless they can land a 3T or 3R on the back of a double axel). Unless the skater can do the axel combo or a 3/3 then she will not be able to get 7 triples out, that being the case she can leave one triple out if she likes. In fact it doesn't make sense under the current rules to do all five trilpes and repeat one froma points perspective - repeat the hardest two and miss out an easier triple is what makes sense.

Yeah, that can be another reason. Some skaters just leave out the jump with less points or that give them trouble. Now skaters try to maximize points.
On the other hand in the past top skaters almost always attempted all 5 triples. The exemple is Kristi who always attempted the 3Sal and rarely landed it. Or Silvia Fontana that always attempted the 3loop and I guess she landed it once or twice. Maybe not attempting a triple jump could mean lower tech marks?

Second observation is that your list from 1999 has not included any of the ladies who lipped their flips. Without watching the competition again i'm fairly certain that Volchkova and Malinina lipped and i susepct Butyrskaya also did.

Ant

Are you sure that Butyrskaya and Malinina lipped? For Volchova I'm sure that she lipped (so 4 jumps for her).
But the question mark are also Rechnio, Drei, Lautowa... Did they lip or flutz? I really don't remember.
Sebestyen's flip used to be textbook. Now she is lipping.

gio · Feb 3, 2009

antmanb said:
Volchkova and Malinina lipped and i susepct Butyrskaya also did.

I've checked and I can say that nor Malinina nor Butyrskaya lipped. They had both perfect lutzes and flips. :rock:

ks777 · Feb 3, 2009

antmanb said:
Second observation is that your list from 1999 has not included any of the ladies who lipped their flips. Without watching the competition again i'm fairly certain that Volchkova and Malinina lipped and i susepct Butyrskaya also did.

Ant

Yuka Sato always praised Malinina's jump techniques.

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 3, 2009

Dick Button revolutionized competive Jumping way back in 1949.

lcd · Feb 3, 2009

Didn't Kristi win a 'bet' with her mother that if she landed her triple sal during '92 nationals, she would get $100.

She did!... and I think Mom had to pay up

Ladskater · Feb 3, 2009

gio said:
I noticed that a lot of present skaters in the Ladies category are omitting some jumps, or do not complete them correctly.
I wonder if that was always like that or if it is a worsening problem.

In the 90s skaters started to put all 5 triple jumps in the program. I remember Kristi always attempted the salchow, even if she failed most of the times.

But now it seems skaters just omit a jump (or even two) from the program.

I would say it is a worsening problem. If you look at footage on Youtube even as far back as Dorothy Hamill (I posted her famous Hamill Camel footage on the Biellman spin topic I started) Dick Button comments on her text book edges into her jumps.

I am convinced it is a result of the lack of training in the basics (including figures)which help a skater really understand the different edges when they are learning jumps such as the Lutz.

Also at one time the ladies only did single and then later double jumps (Barbara Anne Scott for example). Yet, they had such solid jumping and landing technique.

If you get a chance look up some of the earlier skaters on Youtube and see the difference.

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 3, 2009

gio said:
ITA with you! Underrotations are punished too much. They should give compulsory -2GOE, but with the base value of a triple and not of a double and -GOE. Obviously we are talking about slight underrotations.[/QUOT E]

The wrong edge take off for a lutz is an attempt. Failed in my opinion but acknowldeged as partial credit. A wrist slap for a deduction.

The incomplete rotations on a triple jump, although landed, is an attempt. also. However, it is heavily deducted in so many ways.

You figure. The acrobatics are favored over the definitions.

About jumps: comparing skaters of the past and of the present

gio

gio

Mafke

gio

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

antmanb

flying camel

gio

gio

ks777

Joesitz (RIP)

lcd

Match Penalty

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~

Joesitz (RIP)

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