! problem

It serioulsy confuses me now and I'll really appreciate if someone can enlighten me on it.
I saw the protocol for ladies and found some !s I don't really understand.

Okay, so all Mirai, Rachel and Caroline got ! for their flips(Mirai and Caroline got ! in SP too. Not sure about Rachel) and Caroline got ! for her lutz too.
To me, all of the above plus Ashley are more of flutzer(I still think so and I'm a bit surprised they didn't get ! for their lutzes except Caroline) and the idea that they could be lippers never really came to me before.

What is going on?? Their flips at the point of toe-pick looked inside enough to me. Am I missing something? I noticed their entry lines are kind of curvy-from inside to outside to inside again- but still, when they toe-pick, it looked inside and that is when it matters... or isn't it?

Through all this season, I feel like the technical callers are being lenient about flutz and stricter or even weird about lip. Has the rule chaned that I didn't hear about?

gourry said:

It serioulsy confuses me now and I'll really appreciate if someone can enlighten me on it.
I saw the protocol for ladies and found some !s I don't really understand.

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Can you tell me where did you see the protocols?


All the posters here who were lamenting about 7 triples for Rachael and caroline counting 7 triples were forgetting, that those are not clean triples if they get hit with edge call !. Seeing their marks i was sure they got dinged for one or more jumps.

herios said:

Can you tell me where did you see the protocols?

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Here is protocol for LP.

http://web.icenetwork.com/documents/2009/01/25/60234/1/09Nationa_ChampionshipLadies_FS_Scores.pdf

I copied it from Ladies LP thread. I'll go check SP thread if I can find the protocol there.

Okay, here is SP protocol.

http://www.icenetwork.com/documents/2009/01/22/59600/1/09Nationa_ChampionshipLadies_SP_Scores.pdf

And guess what? Alissa also got ! for her flip!
I'm completely puzzled.

..u copy directly from the GS page you will not get the full url, just an abbreviation.

If Zhang & Wagner don't get "e" for their lutzes, I don't know who will.

Mathman said:

..u copy directly from the GS page you will not get the full url, just an abbreviation.

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Thanks for editing it, Mathman

gourry said:

Here is protocol for LP.


I copied it from Ladies LP thread. I'll go check SP thread if I can find the protocol there.

Okay, here is SP protocol.

http://www.icenetwork.com/documents/2009/01/22/59600/1/09Nationa_ChampionshipLadies_SP_Scores.pdf

And guess what? Alissa also got ! for her flip!
I'm completely puzzled.

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Thanks

gourry said:

Here is protocol for LP.

Scores.pdf[/url]

And guess what? Alissa also got ! for her flip!
I'm completely puzzled.

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No, she didn't

Lookng at the LP protocols, it doesn't appear that Alissa got an edge call for the flip, but it wouldn't be the first time that Alissa has gotten edge calls on her flip:

2007 NHK Trophy - "e" on all her 3 flips
2007 Cup of China - e on her flip in the short
2008 Nebelhorn Trophy - ! on her flip in the LP


It seems like she's been working on it, but if she's nervous, I don't find it surprising if she went back to her old technique.

I was about to come post about this but decided to go back and watch Caroline's flip again. The mule kick causes her to flip to a very clear outside edge. Though she flips back to the inside for takeoff, it really is just before takeoff. I think that's what the ! is for in her case -- the jump is on an outside edge at a time when it shouldn't be. I haven't watched the others in slow-mo, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a similar case.

herios said:

No, she didn't

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She did in her SP.

kate said:

I was about to come post about this but decided to go back and watch Caroline's flip again. The mule kick causes her to flip to a very clear outside edge. Though she flips back to the inside for takeoff, it really is just before takeoff. I think that's what the ! is for in her case -- the jump is on an outside edge at a time when it shouldn't be. I haven't watched the others in slow-mo, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a similar case.

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That's what confuses me. So far I thought if the edge is inside at the moment of take-off, it is flip. The edge during the preparation doesn't matter.
But obviously it seems it matters now. What you said can explain all the !s for Rachel, Mirai and Caroline because they all change their edges from inside to outside to inside. (I think Alissa is different case from this.)
So my question is; do they have to maintain their edges inside from preparation to taking off?

And the other thing is that the inside-outside-inside change is usually the ice mark for flutz. Skaters who flutz usually do flip in the exactly same way. So, if one is a flutzer, the one is also a lipper??

It varies. Sasha Cohen did the flip and lutz exactly the same way, wobbling from outside to inside edge. She would get an error on both jumps. Caroline's jumps are similar. Both girls are extra flexible and I wonder whether that has anything to do with it.

Volchkova did the flip and the lutz exactly the same way. Both were on a clear outside edge all the time. She would get an e error on the flip these days. Michelle Kwan did the flip correctly but sometimes would slightly shift to the inside edge at the last moment on the lutz. She would get an ! on the lutz sometimes.

I'm not sure that helps, but that's how I would call it.

It doesn't seem so now, but Caroline has improved since her earlier events. Yes, she has edge problems still, but she seems to have licked her underrotation problem on the first jump. Considering her growth spurt this year, that is a huge accomplishment. Now if only she would relearn her axel. She goes into it with no speed and comes out of it at almost a dead stop. I know she can fix it! Perhaps Linda Leaver will help her, too?

gourry said:

Okay, so all Mirai, Rachel and Caroline got ! for their flips(Mirai and Caroline got ! in SP too. Not sure about Rachel) and Caroline got ! for her lutz too.
To me, all of the above plus Ashley are more of flutzer(I still think so and I'm a bit surprised they didn't get ! for their lutzes except Caroline) and the idea that they could be lippers never really came to me before.

What is going on??

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Honestly, not being sarcastic at all, I think what's going on is the edge and UR calls vary wildly from competition to competition, and it's insane because the calls are determining the outcomes far too much.

I really think Wagner got a gift last night winning the LP. She was wobbly on some landings, or had to really swing her free leg around to keep from touching down on landing, and did she get an edge call on the lutz? Sounds like you're saying not. It was a strong but far from dominating performance to me. And calls for Caroline seem to really vary comp to comp, and Rachael's 3-3 is now scrutinized carefully, and everyone's decided Mirai most always URs and ... and I'm just running on to show how somewhat crazy it's all become. I really think trying to make sense of it all is a little like tilting at windmills.

rallycairn said:

I really think Wagner got a gift last night winning the LP. She was wobbly on some landings, or had to really swing her free leg around to keep from touching down on landing, and did she get an edge call on the lutz? Sounds like you're saying not.

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Oh, she got ! in her SP. Sorry if I confused you. The edge calls I mentioned above are all from LP protocol.

dorispulaski said:

It varies. Sasha Cohen did the flip and lutz exactly the same way, wobbling from outside to inside edge. She would get an error on both jumps. Caroline's jumps are similar. Both girls are extra flexible and I wonder whether that has anything to do with it.

Volchkova did the flip and the lutz exactly the same way. Both were on a clear outside edge all the time. She would get an e error on the flip these days. Michelle Kwan did the flip correctly but sometimes would slightly shift to the inside edge at the last moment on the lutz. She would get an ! on the lutz sometimes.

I'm not sure that helps, but that's how I would call it.

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It helped.
So, do you think it is safe to assume your first category jumpers will get ! for both lutz and flip in the future, too?
I really wish they can make it clear for skaters. I feel really sorry for Caroline because she put loop instead of lutz in her SP to avoid an edge call yet she got it anyway.

I think that since skating has decided to punish bad technique, they will continue to do so. I think that's a good thing. It is bad technique that contributes heavily to injury for these amazing kids. While it's hard at the beginning, it is the right thing.

What I am hoping is that Caroline can fix her jumps! She has such promise and is such an exquisite skater. It is possible! If Alissa Czisny can fix her jumps at such at late point in her career, so can Caroline!

She has already come so far with her underrotation problem of last year!

The judges have shown they will tolerate her high kick (although I think she should fix it) but she really should try to fix the edges on at least one of the 2 flip or lutz and improve her axel technique.

If she can't get Linda Leaver, perhaps she should consider doing some sessions with Elaine Zayak. I am very impressed with the jump technique of Elaine's skaters, Joelle Forte and her junior skaters . It is not always remembered, but Elaine had good lutz technique, although she never had more than a double.

dorispulaski said:

Yes, she has edge problems still, but she seems to have licked her underrotation problem on the first jump. Considering her growth spurt this year, that is a huge accomplishment. Now if only she would relearn her axel. She goes into it with no speed and comes out of it at almost a dead stop. I know she can fix it!

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I agree, I think Caroline's made some progress on the jumps this year. Besides relearning the 3S and getting all her 3R's fully rotated, her edge on the lutz was essentially flat in the FS, whereas it was very curvy (inside) earlier this season. I think she seems to be coping with her growth spurt relatively well. Everyone's talking about how much of a challenge the growth spurt and hormonal changes are wrecking havoc with Mirai's body and mind, but Caroline has faced exactly the same issues and in fact is slightly taller than Mirai now, I think -- and she hasn't publicly mentioned the puberty bug or her tendonitis and illness earlier in the season to explain her poor results (her sub-par SC was very much related to that). Far from giving off the image of an emotional teenage wreck, Caroline actually appears more collected and mature on ice and off. If Caroline's slightly disappointing season this year (it was *very* disappointing to her not to make World's team, even if she's not airing that publicly) was the full extent of this onslaught of puberty, then she's come through it really promisingly -- given the steady progress she's been making this season. Now she's in a much better position to build on her skating, in speed & power, in jump techniques. Heck, surely if Alissa can improve her jumping at 21, Caroline should be able to at 15!

Regarding the axel, she did a beautiful axel in the SP warm-up with a lot more speed than I ever saw before. It looked like she had really worked on that jump after the weird pop at TEB in the SP. In the SP she also went into the 2A with more speed, but it came out all wrong, she lost control of the landing, and that really cost her in GOE. Because of that, probably, she did her 2A more conservatively in the FS again. I remember she actually didn't have an especially slow 2A before junior National's 2 years ago. Then she fell on the 2A and that basically cost her the junior title that everyone expected her to win. Ever since then, she has been heading into her 2A with hesitation and almost trepidation. But she's such a fighter, I think she will overcome this problem. I've no doubt that she'll work on it more intensively, and try to get used to jumping it in this new way with more speed on preparation.

rallycairn said:

Honestly, not being sarcastic at all, I think what's going on is the edge and UR calls vary wildly from competition to competition, and it's insane because the calls are determining the outcomes far too much.

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Maybe they would if we were talking about actual edge calls (e), but this thread is really about edge warnings (!) which is basically the caller alerting the judges to a possibly imperfect entry edge. What GOE the judges wish to take off (if any) is entirely up to them.

I am very impressed with the jump technique of Elaine's skaters, Joelle Forte and her junior skaters . It is not always remembered, but Elaine had good lutz technique, although she never had more than a double.[/QUOTE]

Funny, I was just thinking this today. USFSA should hold some clinics for their skaters, they could invite Linda Leaver & Brian & Zayek. They could even invite the Scotchvolds. They were good technical coaches.

These skaters need technical help. But also they need advice on the mental aspect of skaing. Bebe could get some help.