Hersch on Johnny

Mathman said:

I guess I am just naive. I don't think the USFSA judges are in the business of sending messages. What i think is, Abbott skated the best, Mroz the second best, and Lysacek the third best.

At least they gave Weir a break by naming him the first alternate before Ryan Bradley, who had a great outing in Cleveland.

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Exactly, Johnny skated poorly. That is fact. He got a good score because I believe the judges wanted him to medal. No one was thinking that Mroz was going to overskate every one. Am I correct? The CoP nitpicks for points - not who skated well the last three years. I did not hear one word in Cleveland that Johnny wuz robbed, most fans there felt really bad for him. Most fans, if not all, felt Mroz was the best that night.

Given Evan's great SP, repeat great SP, and Jeremy's almost flawless routines, the USFS picked the correct 3, but Bradley should be first alternate, imo.

he's first alternate for 4CC... I think it's smart to keep Johnny for Worlds... especially with the three spots for the olys to consider... he and Evan - when they both go - have been very good with securing those spots... I think he's the better go to man. Ryan's hot and cold... unfortunately... still love him though.

Joesitz said:

... but Bradley should be first alternate, imo.

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Johnny has already been slapped on the face by USFS by not giving him the exception. Bradley never had international result as good as Johnny's. They are not in the same league, at least on the international stage. Of course, Johnny should be listed in front of Bradley. No question about it.

how is it a slap in the face??? he didn't skate as well as Bradley in Cleveland.

It's obvious. Johnny is an internationally well known skater and has last year and this year's skating results, except at this time's Nationals, to prove. He earned World's bronze last year and didn't get to go to the Worlds this time. It is a slap in the face. Bradley is a good show skater, but his program and style did not please the international judges. I am not saying that USFS dislike Johnny so much, or there is no reason for USFS to do so. But if USFS wants, it can certainly let Johnny go to the Worlds. And Johnny might be a safer choice for US. It did not - with a good reason of course. I don't know if this can be served as another wake up call?

jennylovskt said:

Johnny has already been slapped on the face by USFS by not giving him the exception. .

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Jenny who has the USFSA made an exception for in the past. I'm talking about people who compete at Nationals and do poorly can you name one person they've made an exception for?

I'm not Jenny but Kimmie last year comes to mind, though she didn't ASK for a bye.

Tonichelle said:

I'm not Jenny but Kimmie last year comes to mind, though she didn't ASK for a bye.

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Hacker stepped aside in that situation and asked to only be an alternate and go to Four Continents. Also there's a difference between replacing number five with six and replacing number 2 with 5. AT that point the USFSA was thinking about the good of the underage skaters and worried about worlds placements.

IF Brandon had stumbled his way on to the world team and got his silver medal with a program that included no Triple axels or triple lutzs (the equivalent to what Hacker did) Instead Mroz landed 8 triples and a quad. Winning the TES mark by 8 points is hard to ignore. Not the same situation.

The Nationals are a very important competition as skaters get sent to Worlds based on the results there. If three skaters are being sent to Worlds, it is not really important to win at the Nationals, but to place among the three first.

Anyway, a skater should take the Nationals extremely seriously and especially avoid big travels just before the event. Skaters are humanbeings and they get a flu or catch cold like everybody. That is the reason why a skater should be extra careful before an important event like Nationals, in my opinion. I hope Weir will be more careful next year, because I, like many others, will miss him at Worlds 2009 very much.

About charity events, I have understood that skaters do get money for participating.

There is never any fault with Johnny. Faults are always caused by something outside of him. If Johnny had placed at the Nats, there wouldn't be any problem on sending him to LA. But he didn't. Should they have made an exception and send Johnny to Worlds instead of one of the three who were on the podium?

I believe the USFS policy is the podium goes. Yes?

Making him first alternate was really an excetion by the USFS based on whatever made them choose him over Bradley. The final scoes were in favor of Bradley. And there is many concerns about other Men who skated better than Johnny THAT NIGHT in both SP and LP. What about Curran Oi? Tommy Steenberg? Adam Rippon?

I believe the USFS policy is their choice for 1st Alternate. Yes?

It is not written in stone that the top 3 are the choices for the World team, but it has been the standard practice of US Figure Skating that the top three eligble skaters go (with Meissner the exception last year). Byes have been given, but always in the past have been to skaters who withdrew from Nationals before hand (Eldridge, Kerrigan, Kwan). Johnny got outskated this past week by FOUR men. It's not like he was even close to third.

Think of it this way, Johnny fans, if you were an Evan Lysacek fan, would you be happy that people want him dumped off the team after he skated better than Johnny this week? If you were a Brandon Mroz fan, would you be happy that people want him dumped off the team after he blew the doors off with a HUGE score? (Note, I have no bias in this particular argument here, my favorite got the automatic trip to Worlds as National Champ ).

Yes, Johnny won a Bronze at least year's Worlds and the Bronze at the GPF, but he looked in horrible physical shape at Nationals and his condition looked like it would take him longer than a month-month and 1/2 to be ready to compete at his best, which is what will be required to go to Worlds and not repeat this disaster week. Take the time off, get healthy, and get prepared for the most important season in your career...

mskater93 said:

Johnny got outskated this past week by FOUR men. It's not like he was even close to third.

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Yes, I read the scores before. Outskated is the right word. 17 point up to next man and almost 40 to the top... *coughing*

mskater93 said:

Take the time off, get healthy, and get prepared for the most important season in your career...

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mskater93 said:

It is not written in stone that the top 3 are the choices for the World team, but it has been the standard practice of US Figure Skating that the top three eligble skaters go (with Meissner the exception last year). Byes have been given, but always in the past have been to skaters who withdrew from Nationals before hand (Eldridge, Kerrigan, Kwan). Johnny got outskated this past week by FOUR men. It's not like he was even close to third.

Think of it this way, Johnny fans, if you were an Evan Lysacek fan, would you be happy that people want him dumped off the team after he skated better than Johnny this week? If you were a Brandon Mroz fan, would you be happy that people want him dumped off the team after he blew the doors off with a HUGE score? (Note, I have no bias in this particular argument here, my favorite got the automatic trip to Worlds as National Champ ).

Yes, Johnny won a Bronze at least year's Worlds and the Bronze at the GPF, but he looked in horrible physical shape at Nationals and his condition looked like it would take him longer than a month-month and 1/2 to be ready to compete at his best, which is what will be required to go to Worlds and not repeat this disaster week. Take the time off, get healthy, and get prepared for the most important season in your career...

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mskater93 said:

Think of it this way, Johnny fans, if you were an Evan Lysacek fan, would you be happy that people want him dumped off the team after he skated better than Johnny this week?

Yes, Johnny won a Bronze at least year's Worlds and the Bronze at the GPF, but he looked in horrible physical shape at Nationals and his condition looked like it would take him longer than a month-month and 1/2 to be ready to compete at his best

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If Johnny hadn't been responsible for the extra spot on the world team, I would have never even considered for a minute that he should be on it this year based on his Nats results. But the fact is he did earn that third spot, so regardless of his performance, he should have been named to the team. As Scott Hamilton put it, there was always this rule that if you medaled in the worlds, that third spot was yours no matter what. Johnny Weir earned that third spot for himself.
He did well throughout the season and his previous results should have cemented his status.

But the USFSA is always full of bs contradictions. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. Lysacek has only shined at nationals--this season, his results in the GP was crap. Weir was solidly consistent throughout.
Yes, he was not at this best this week, but he wasn't dead last either. He has a good two months to recuperate. On one hand, the USFSA waivered in Belbin and Agosto solely on their reputations and previous results. How is that fair to Navarro and Bommentre? We don't know if Agosto will heal in time. All we got was lip service from Miss Belbin about how he's supposedly healing faster than expected. They had to withdraw from the GPF and Nats. because of that serious injury, but they were still ushered in because they are America's best chance for an extra position at the Olympics. Weir medaled in the GPF and competed in the Nats and is currently ranked 4th in the world by the ISU (Lysacek is 6th). So really, who is the better skater based on results? Obviously, Weir. The hypocrisy of letting B&A compete at the Worlds, but not Weir, is absolutely sickening. Honestly, it is true--he should have just withdrawn and he would have been ushered in. The team should have been: Abbott, Mroz and Weir. Lysacek isn't the golden boy that the USFSA delusionally thinks he is.

I'm also sick and tired of sports columnists blaming Weir for going to South Korea. Oooh, if he hadn't gone to that God-forsaken place, he would have never gotten sick. As if America is some bubble where people never catch the flu or get sick...snort.

Raatkirani said:

entire post

As Scott Hamilton put it, there was always this rule that if you medaled in the worlds, that third spot was yours no matter what. Johnny Weir earned that third spot for himself.

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Very good post!
Interesting... Scott has a point. But what I've begin to ask myself lately: does Johnny want to go? Maybe when the first disappointment is gone, he takes a step back and feel that resting the rest of the season maybe isn't that bad.

Raatkirani said:

As Scott Hamilton put it, there was always this rule that if you medaled in the worlds, that third spot was yours no matter what.

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Actually, I was surprised to hear Scott say that. He did not give any instances of that "rule" ever coming into play in the selection of the U.S. World team.

Has it ever happened that someone earns an extra spot the year before, then flubs the next years nationals, but was put on the team anyway in gratitude? Or is this "rule" just something that Scott made up on the spur of the moment.

Scott did not mention this rule when he was commenting on Brandon Mroz' or Evan Lysacek's skate. "Well, that was a good skate by Brandon -- too bad he can't go to Worlds because of the spot reserved for Johnny Weir."

Scott says so many things, it just made me wonder.

Mathman said:

Or is this "rule" just something that Scott made up on the spur of the moment.

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I believe there's your answer! Per usual, Hamilton has no clue what he's talking about. I think he just likes to hear himself talk, unfortunately to the displeasure of the viewing audience.

The USFSA had no problem passing up World team member Bobek (3rd place, Worlds 1995) for the untested Lipinski in 1996. They also had no problem passing up 3-time World team member Nikodinov (5th place, Worlds 2001) for the untested Cohen in 2002. They had no problem passing up 2-time World team member and Olympian Harding (4th place, Olympics 1992 and 6th place, Worlds 1992) for the untested Ervin and Kwiatkowski in 1993 either. I'm sure there are other examples, but those are the immediate ones that come to my mind.

I think it's an "unspoken" rule that was used more when Scott was competing than now.

museksk8r said:

They had no problem passing up 2-time World team member and Olympian Harding (4th place, Olympics 1992 and 6th place, Worlds 1992) for the untested Ervin and Kwiatkowski in 1993 either.

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Yeah, and it was a huge mistake.

As much as Abbort is great skater, i think his FS at the national doesn't deserve 154+ score. Both his TES and PCs score are inflated. His skating is no where near the caliber he deliver at the GPF. All of his jumps are tight, some stumble and his last combo 2A+3T is clearly underrotated. But the performance of the night is mroz. hope he can improve and keep his quad.