Mens' LP

Buttercup said:

OT - sadly, my German is pretty non-existent, because I stupdily chose to take French in high school. I don't speak any French, either. At least I can usually make myself understood in English .

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Hey French is not stupid! But It's pretty useless
I'm taking German at school, the mistake of my life: 5 years and I still can't understand anything!

rosee said:

Hey French is not stupid! But It's pretty useless
I'm taking German at school, the mistake of my life: 5 years and I still can't understand anything!

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It was stupid because everyone told me I'd never pick it up; I have nobody among my family and friends who speaks French, so nobody to practice with (my grandmother's German, so I could have worked on it with her); and all my friends were taking French with me so we spent most of the class socializing. So looking back it seems like a bad idea.

Nothing personal against the language or the people who speak it .

And how a thread on 4CC men's skating turned into a language disucssion, I'm not sure. But I'll take responsibility for it if needed . Maybe we should talk about, um, Evan Lysacek? I think his costume was better in the LP than earlier in the season, but his hair was weird.

Hsuhs said:

What, Dai-chan as a Savior on a white horse?

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Yes. But I trust the two other Japanese guys and the two French ones to be a challenge too.

Buttercup said:

It was stupid because everyone told me I'd never pick it up; I have nobody among my family and friends who speaks French, so nobody to practice with (my grandmother's German, so I could have worked on it with her); and all my friends were taking French with me so we spent most of the class socializing. So looking back it seems like a bad idea.

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French is my very favourite language. But I always had help and was totally obsessed with it from the age 12 to 14. The basics I learnt back then, the pronunciation I worked so hard on (trying to kill that German accent) - it's still there. It took me some time to develop the same ambition with English, I just forced myself at some point to only watch English TV, read English books - but my German accent is horrible, I just can't seem to be able to kill it.

rosee said:

Hey French is not stupid! But It's pretty useless
I'm taking German at school, the mistake of my life: 5 years and I still can't understand anything!

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I honestly wouldn't want to learn German. If it's your first language, you just never realise how difficult the language is - but the more languages I learnt the more I realised how many different elements there can be in a language. Especially Russian made me realise it, because it has so many similar grammatical aspects.

Hsuhs said:

I hope the mods will clean up this chatty-chat, since it's too obvious of an OT.

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It's hardly the first time that has happened to a thread .

I'll tie in the language thing to skating: is it just me or are some of the skaters quite multilingual? Doesn't Carolina Kostner speak like five languages? I wonder if they have to become fluent in other languages because of having to move for training + the international exposure.

Buttercup said:

It's hardly the first time that has happened to a thread .

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We should stick to the original topic, which is 4CC and... the unhealthy excitement about some skaters' marks, IIRC?

Hsuhs said:

We should stick to the original topic, which is 4CC and... the unhealthy excitement about some skaters' marks, IIRC?

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I think I've done more than enough of that... Having seen very little of 4CC, I'm afraid I can't do much more than discuss Chan vs. everyone else, except maybe offer my opinions as to the skaters' costumes and styling. Can we do a 4CC edition of What not to wear?

sarukou said:

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I don't think there is a description of a "technical program component score?"

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If you read the descriptions of, for instance, "Skating Skills" it talks about skating technique. "Edge control and flow over the ice demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns, etc.), the clarity of technique, and the use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed." Similarly for Transitions (rockers, counters, Mohawks, Choctaws, 3-turns, etc.) To me, this is part of the technical aspect of the sport, just like a camel spin is.

Under P/E, Choreography, and Interpretation, however, the description of what the judges are looking for starts out "Involvement of the skaters physically, emotionally and intellectually as they translate the intent of the music and choreography." To me, this is "performance," not "technique." It is more a matter of opinion than is the question of whether the skater did good counters and three turns (technique).

Anyways, even though each individual component was intended to be judged separately, this is obviously not happening. They are being used like the presentation score of the 6.0.

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On another thread the point was made that the international judges mostly key the Program Component Scores to the Skating Skills component. That is, they give their mark for Skating Skills first, then the others fall in line.

In an experiment where they were asked to judge P/E, Choreo, and Interpretation first, the scores came out differently. So if you buy the idea that Skating Skills and Transitions are about technique and the other three are about artistry, then again it is the technical side of the things that is leading the way, with presentation trotting obediently behind.

By the way, it is interesting to me that Transitions is almost always the lowest of the five Program Component Scores -- I believe this is because it is the easiest to quantify (either you did some transitional elements or you didn't.)

Also, in my opinion the GOEs are clearly on the "technical" rather than the "presentation" side of the equation. For instance, negative GOEs on jumps are assigned for technical errors such as

Underrotation
Falls
Two-foot landings
Step out of landing
Wrong edge take-off, and
Touchdown with one or both hands

All of these things are "technical" and objective.

On the positive side, the criteria are

creative/difficult entry
recognizable steps into jump
varied air postition or delay in rotation
great height or distance
superior extension on landing
superior flow in and out

To get a +1 the jump must be error free and have 1 or 2 of these bullets, 3-4 bullets for +2, and 5-6 bullets for +3.

Although there is some judgement involved in deciding whether extention and flow is "superior" or not, still this is all about technique.

So I don't think we can really say that the IJS focuses more on presentation than on technique. It's just that there is more to good technical skating than just rotating jumps.

JMO.

Tonichelle said:

are people actually hating ON CHAN? I'll admit I haven't read everything word for word, but it seems that what's coming in question is the JUDGING, not the SKATER.

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That's my take too.

Mathman said:

For instance, negative GOEs on jumps are assigned for technical errors such as

Underrotation
Falls
Two-foot landings
Step out of landing
Wrong edge take-off, and
Touchdown with one or both hands

All of these things are "technical" and objective.

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I agree on the "technical" part, but not the objective. Interpretations vary across competitions. Sometimes, even a fall isn't a fall.

I believe the plus (+) GoEs when summed up give the skating skills in part. Not necessary to give a separate mark for skating skills in the PC or drop the plus(+) GoEs. Redundancy.

However, the argument that a well executed Quad is a skating skill (how can I deny that?). Yet there is all those skating turns to deal with as well as flow, appropriate speed, posture, etc for citing good skating skills.

My suggestion would be to have a review on how to score that elusive Skating Skills. segment in the PC. Is it Technique? Is it Subjecive? Is it high level Tech?

Oscilla said:

..
(snip)
I think Evan's reaction to Chan's scores sums it up:
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5672/nogodbn8.jpg
]

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Funny that is the same reaction Rachael had at Nationals when she heard
Alissa's scores.

Buttercup said:

It's hardly the first time that has happened to a thread .

I'll tie in the language thing to skating: is it just me or are some of the skaters quite multilingual? Doesn't Carolina Kostner speak like five languages? I wonder if they have to become fluent in other languages because of having to move for training + the international exposure.

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Kostner was born in a region called "Alto-Adige" where people speaks both Italian and German (they are Italian but don't want to admit it ). I guess she knows English, naturally. Maybe French?
I think Lambiel also speaks French, German, English and Italian. Swiss people are multi-lingual.
p.s. I personally love German, and adore Japanese

GiuliaPlum said:

Kostner was born in a region called "Alto-Adige" where people speaks both Italian and German (they are Italian but don't want to admit it ). I guess she knows English, naturally. Maybe French?
I think Lambiel also speaks French, German, English and Italian. Swiss people are multi-lingual.
p.s. I personally love German, and adore Japanese

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I recenly watched some of Lambiels old programs on youtube and saw interviews and videos where he spoke Italian, german and french, and of course english. I hadn't realized he knew German and Italian. Very impressive.

Here is my take on the whole debate, for what it is worth as I am no expert. First of all, Patrick is training a quad...he is only 18 and will not likely put it in a program until it is a more solid jump for him. I say good for his coaches. He is very young and how many of our athletes wind up injured from training that jump. That is the only jump he is not competing right now...therefore saying that if you are not going to try all the hard jumps why do singles is redundant. Kurt Browning struggled with his lutz but could do every other jump...does that man he shouldn't have done singles?? No, that would be a silly comment. Secondly, and this is just what I like about COP is it DOES reward the complete program more than 6.0 did. Case in point, Elvis had amazing consistent jumps, but he usually did a long set-up leading into them. I saw the same thing with Emanuel Sandhu (although his jumps were rarely consistent but you always saw them coming.) That makes the jumps easier to compete consistently. Skaters like Kurt Browning, Jeff Buttle, and Patrick Chan have jumps that come out of nowhere, which I love! I used all Canadian skaters as my examples so I couldn't be accused of bias, and I also have to say that I loved Eman and Elvis just as much as the others in their glory days. There you go...just my thoughts!!

Please forgive my not having read the more recent posts to this thread. If I wait until I get that done, I'll never post lol.

I care about edge quality, and many other things, such as line, carriage, appropriate outflow from jumps, clean and swift footwork that is really *foot* work, not just full-body dramatics that can be used to distract the viewer from what the feet are not doing. I like to see jumps not only landed, but landed as well as possible, not with a plop, a jerk, or a wobble.

Having said all this, complete with a run-on sentence, I have to say that I love the *quality* of both Chan's and Kozuka's skating. In short, I like watching both Chan and Kozuka skate; I really enjoy it. They've got strong, flexible ankles with masterful control, and edges, edges, edges; their blades are really in the ice.

I feel that in the years to come, the great male singles rivalry may well be between those two skaters. Both of them are quite young, and still developing. I wish them both the absolute best in their future develoment and physical health.

I think that Nobunari Oda is also extraordinarily talented, but he hurries too much. I think he needs to tame his nerves, although after what he has been through, nervousness on his return to the major events is quite understandable. I also think he needs to work on what I shall call "elegance". I wish Nobu the absolute best, also.

Okay, I first wrote down what I'd really like to say, and then edited out half of it lol. Male singles skating is my favorite of the four disciplines, so I always have a lot of opinions about it.

Joesitz said:

I believe the plus (+) GoEs when summed up give the skating skills in part. Not necessary to give a separate mark for skating skills in the PC or drop the plus (+) GoEs. Redundancy.

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I think it might help a little just to re-name the "Skating Skills" component. As you say, everything is a "skating skill." Maybe if we called it "Edging and Flow," that would be something more specific to give a mark to.

I agree with dropping the plus GOEs -- or rather with a GOE scale from -5 to +1 instead of -3 to +3.

With a GOE all the way down to -5 this would allow the scores to reflect multiple errors, like wrong edge take-off, fall out of landing, etc., appropriately. A really terrible triple Lutz, for instance, could end up with base value 6.0 and -5.0 GOE for credit of only 1.0 point.

0 GOE would mean you completed every segment of the element satisfactorily, and +1 would mean "something special."

I love to see huge jumps with lots of speed in and out.
When I see a triple double double that is completed all within 10 ft., I think, whats the point. So I really enjoyed seeing that the GOEs seemed to be rewarding this aspect much more than previously. Sadly, however, I am pretty clearly in the minority. And maybe rightly so, if the effect is double counting the bonuses.

With all the talk about problems with the COP, is there a committee that is charged with making policy changes( i.e. tinkering with specific aspects of the COP) at the end of each season, prior to the next years events. I heard that they revised the value for quads, so you would think that could be an annual thing.

tollerfan said:

With all the talk about problems with the COP, is there a committee that is charged with making policy changes (i.e. tinkering with specific aspects of the COP) at the end of each season, prior to the next years events. I heard that they revised the value for quads, so you would think that could be an annual thing.

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I think it falls under the authority of the ISU Technical Committee. Alexander Lakenik is the chairman, and a pretty powerful bigwig in the ISU hierarchy.

Yes, they review the rules every year and come up with various revisions. last year the base values for quads and triple Axels were raised, the number of spins inthe LP was reduced from four to three, and there were some changes regarding pair elements as well.

Mathman said:

I think it might help a little just to re-name the "Skating Skills" component. As you say, everything is a "skating skill." Maybe if we called it "Edging and Flow," that would be something more specific to give a mark to.

I agree with dropping the plus GOEs -- or rather with a GOE scale from -5 to +1 instead of -3 to +3.

With a GOE all the way down to -5 this would allow the scores to reflect multiple errors, like wrong edge take-off, fall out of landing, etc., appropriately. A really terrible triple Lutz, for instance, could end up with base value 6.0 and -5.0 GOE for credit of only 1.0 point.

0 GOE would mean you completed every segment of the element satisfactorily, and +1 would mean "something special."

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I think we could bring this up during the summer doldrums. It's really a problem deciphering what exactly Skating Skills are even after reading the bullets. We're not going to change anything just speak about it. Maybe Hersch can pick up on it.