Article on Sasha Cohen

Dustin,

News to you? Why would a skater be any different from any other athlete when it comes to building stamina? Sure, it takes time, but it is doable. I'm just an average Joe (Joelle?), but I build the endurance to complete an Ironman triathlon (2.4 mile swim, 112 mile bike, and 26.2 mile run) in 9 months of training. I had no triathlon experience prior to signing up for that event, but I had run two marathons so I wasn't starting from endurance level 0. So, yeah, building endurance can be done - and rather easily.

Seems to me that it just needs to be a priority. I'd think any training program would include not only the technical work, but off ice weights, core strengthening, and aerobic work to build endurance. A skater with excellent technique isn't going to be successful if they can't make it through a full program. No doubt skating is different from any other sport, but it seems to me that there are certain things that apply to sport in general and this is one of them.

tharrtell

tharrtell said:

Dustin,

News to you? Why would a skater be any different from any other athlete when it comes to building stamina? Sure, it takes time, but it is doable. I'm just an average Joe (Joelle?), but I build the endurance to complete an Ironman triathlon (2.4 mile swim, 112 mile bike, and 26.2 mile run) in 9 months of training. I had no triathlon experience prior to signing up for that event, but I had run two marathons so I wasn't starting from endurance level 0. So, yeah, building endurance can be done - and rather easily.

tharrtell

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I know your post wasn't directed at me, but..... regardless of your training I'm sure you were still tired at the end of your events even though you had made building endurance a priority. No one is saying you can't do it, but we're just saying that you can have awesome endurance/stamina and still be a bit winded at the end and that building endurance is not an easy task, it takes time and hard work. Endurance makes what you're doing out there easier, it doesn't make it easy. There's a difference. Never assume that what an athlete at these levels is doing is, or should be, easy for them. If it was easy, there would be more elite skaters.

tharrtell said:

I'm just an average Joe (Joelle?), but I build the endurance to complete an Ironman triathlon (2.4 mile swim, 112 mile bike, and 26.2 mile run) in 9 months of training. I had no triathlon experience prior to signing up for that event, but I had run two marathons so I wasn't starting from endurance level 0. So, yeah, building endurance can be done - and rather easily.

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9 months of hard training doesn't sound so "easy" to me.

Allow me to jump off the "endurance" bandwagon for a moment, and address another topic. Someone said Evgeni didn't do full run throughs of his programs at Worlds. This is true. It doesn't mean he NEVER does them, I believe he does one full run through every day. Not sure, though. But at Bofrost, I saw 90% of the practice sessions, and NO ONE went through their entire program. It's probably too hard with all those other people on the ice.

And the "brilliant technician" remark got me, too. Yes, her extension is great, she has marvellously centered spins, but a great technician doesn't land on the wrong edge coming out of her jumps...

Laura

PrincessLeppard said:

Allow me to jump off the "endurance" bandwagon for a moment, and address another topic. Someone said Evgeni didn't do full run throughs of his programs at Worlds. This is true. It doesn't mean he NEVER does them, I believe he does one full run through every day. Not sure, though. But at Bofrost, I saw 90% of the practice sessions, and NO ONE went through their entire program. It's probably too hard with all those other people on the ice.

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It was me. I didn't mean to imply that he never did them. In practices you could definitely tell that he was nursing an injury. I know he left the lp practice session early. I think he skipped his run-thru entirely because of that injury.

Plus, I think during worlds, a lot of skaters don't do full runthroughs, because they don't want to show their hand, so to speak, or leave their best performance on the practice ice a la Roz Sumners.

He's another skater who still 'seems' quite energized and fit at the end of an LP, so I'd like to see how the CoP affects his jump placement. I think he could move a couple of triples toward the end of his LP with no problem if he's healthy.

Plush almost always does all his jumps before the 2 minute mark.

PrincessLeppard said:

And the "brilliant technician" remark got me, too. Yes, her extension is great, she has marvellously centered spins, but a great technician doesn't land on the wrong edge coming out of her jumps...

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She also has a couple of other quality errors, like flutzing and her strange wobbly entry to her flip, and her lack of edge security compared to some other skaters. When I think of a female skater with "brilliant technique", I think of someone like Michelle Kwan or Irina Slutskaya (or even Carolina Kostner, although I haven't seen as much of her yet), not Sasha. I love Sasha's skating and her style, and she has many great aspects and examples of good technique, but she is not the worlds greatest skater yet.

This thread is getting interesting - not so much about Sasha - but about the necessary endurance (stamina) to complete a 4 minute routine while experiencing nerves because one is being judged at every technical moment.

As an example of stamina, and this is not a bash, if you watch Cheng Li as I do on TV and Live, his first 2 minutes looks like he will take the GOLD; his next minute he looks like he'll be on the podium, hopefully. His last minute, all I can say is, Wha happened? This is an obvious example of excellent skaters who need to work on stamina. It can be done as pointed out by our Triathalon poster.

The concept, imo, of executing the most difficult tricks at the front end of a routine is nothing more than pure strategy because the stamina runs dry in that last minute and even the best can not come up with anything more than a final 3toe. There will be no 3x3x3s from the gals or 4x4s from the boys in the last minute of a routine for some time to come. So, it seems to me that stamina plays a big role in figure skating.

About Sasha - I think Dick was commenting on her ballet/acrobatic positions as having excellent technique. I agree with him. As for the technical, I believe she could use a bit of practice on landing jumps more solidly. It could be that she is tired toward the end, but to me, she always seems to be rushing so in her case I do not see the need for endurance training. However keeping up the stamina for all skaters is a MUST.

Joe

Joe, ITA about Li! He is so phenomenal at the beginning and then he just falls apart. Alexander Abt is my second favorite skater, but good Lord, it's a struggle to watch him near the end of his programs. *I* feel tired just watching him trying to survive the last minute of his program.

Kara, at Worlds QR, Plush did do all his jumps before 2:30, but that is the only time I've ever seen him do it. and you know, that was such a brilliant program, I didn't even notice it. But it's a legitimate criticism of that particular program. *Most* skaters do *most* of their jumps early. That's why the CoP has those bonus points there for doing them later.

Plush did leave his practices early at Worlds. I ran into him in the elevator at the hotel, and my friends who waited for him after that practice session were upset that he "snuck" out. Good Lord. He looked so tired and he was very pale, I think the pain must have been worse than he let on.

cheers,

Laura

Wow, it's easy to see who the hot skater is this season. We've got 4 pages already in 24 hours.

"[Although I am a huge Sasha Fan], It kind of annoys me, how Fleming and Button act as if Sasha had every single major title including Torino already in her bag ... (M)ost of what Fleming and Button say in this article about Sasha is right - I only can't stand the way they say it." -- Sidejehoka

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Well, you have to remember that Dick Button, Peggy Fleming, Terry Gannon, etc., are employees of ABC television. It is their job to hype American skaters. And they did temper their praise by saying things like

"But, mentally, control has been her problem. She is awesome in practices. Then, when she gets out, she just loses focus. She's got to overcome that. She just has to be able to do it under pressure." -- Peggy Fleming

"I wonder what TT tells Sasha in person." -- Sidejehoka

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I wonder, too. I remember that Frank Caroll drew criticism in 2000-2001 for continuing to tell Michelle Kwan that she was the best in the world at the kind of lyrical skating that she specialized in. The implication was that she didn't have to push herself to try new things.

About Sasha going for a quad, why not? Miki Ando did, and got into the record books for it. Maybe by 2006 ladies with Olympic hopes will have to have a quad, or at least a triple Axel.

OT -- Everybody go to the Cafe and read Sidejehoka's fascinating account of her recent experiences as a foreign student in Uzbekistan! (The Cafe, "The Heart of Central Asia.")

Mathman

The concept, imo, of executing the most difficult tricks at the front end of a routine is nothing more than pure strategy because the stamina runs dry in that last minute and even the best can not come up with anything more than a final 3toe. There will be no 3x3x3s from the gals or 4x4s from the boys in the last minute of a routine for some time to come. So, it seems to me that stamina plays a big role in figure skating.

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That's one of the things that made Lu Chen so interesting in the 1992-1994 seasons. Those long programs were practically back-loaded. 3lutz, 3flip, then usually a 3toe and 2x in the last 1:30 of her programs. That was very gutsy, and I don't think she was always rewarded adequately for that.

Midori put a 3-3 combo toward the end of her lp's, and Kristi, Michelle, LuLu, and Nancy were able to position their 3lutz toward the end of their programs as real 'climaxes' to their programs. Much the same as '2nd triple axels' were used as climaxes to men's lps in the early 90's.

Li is a great example. The opening half of his lp was so superlative at worlds, had he just been able to 'hold on' toward the end I think he could have snatched the bronze. As a technician he is gorgeous to watch.

For Sasha, I would be all for her going for a quad sal, if I wasn't so worried about her current triple sal.

Kara Bear, your Sasha banner at the top of this page is "Simply Stunning!"

MM

I am not saying that a skater shouldn't be out of breath after a program. I am, however, saying that they should have the stamina to skate through the end of the program. Joe used a perfect example in Li - it was disappointing to watch his program last year (the first time I saw him skate) because it fell completely flat at the end.

My point in all this is pretty simple. Stamina is essential. Stamina can be built. (9 months really isn't a long time - especially when you consider a skater has been training for many, many years) A skater isn't going to win competitions if s/he turns triples into doubles or loses momentum at the end of a program because s/he is tired. Training for any sport requires more than sport specific training, and I'm surprised (at least it doesn't seem to me) that figure skating has embraced that concept - although, it does seem as though it's going that direction with talk of pilates work (which is excellent) and off-ice trainers.

Edited because I can't spell.

peachstatesk8er said:

.....sitting here LOL at all the armchair coaching when I'm willing to bet 99% of the posters here have never even skated an ISI Alpha program in competition much less been on the elite track.

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Ironically, that's what I always used to think when certain posters *ahem* would mercilessly bash favorites of mine - Ms. Hughes & her coach, for instance. I always wonder how many Nats, GP, World or Olympic medals the trash talker has. :sheesh:

It's a given that no one here is as good a skater as Sasha. But I don't think it's unreasonable to ask SasahFans, and NYT reporters, to wait on the "best ever" hyperbole until she's at least made a World or Olympic podium ONCE.

And it's only natural that such hype, such talk of great expectations, should fuel discussion about her technique, her training habits, and so on.

BTW Some people think Sasha will do well under CoP. I'll be PO'd if I see other skaters getting "called" on the flutz, for example, but not SashaSkater.

I think Sasha will do just fine this year, she is training hard and will knock everyone out of their socks, I just feel it.

Peach and others,

Hi, I have actually been there on the ice, and also as a dancer. BUT reading back over what I wrote I realise I didn't really say what I meant and it reads all wrong (no change there then!).

The remark about not being breathless other than from excitement was kind of meant as irony, but I can see that reading it doesn't come out the same as if one were saying it!

What I actually find odd - but failed to make clear! - is the fact that a skater at Sasha's level should now be embarking on a training regime that leaves her pleased and surprised she has breath left when she finishes her free program. I was really suprised that she commented on this, as I would have expected most skaters at her level to have been training such a regime for several years. Since this seems to be a new thing for her I am incredibly impressed she ever skated to the standard she has been, and I am really excited to see what she can do now.

peachstatesk8er said:

Actually Sasha does have excellent technique. Having good technique does not mean you'll never, trip, falter, or fall like some fans seem to think. When they mention her technique, they're referring to the fact that Sasha has excellent step up into her axel, incredible position in the air on her jumps, good flow out of them (when she lands them well), incredible extension and position in her spins, and the best pointed feet outside of the icedance events, among other things. Skaters with great technique are not always perfect. Michelle, Angela, Paul Wylie all have good, even great, technique, do they occasionally falter? Yes. Doesn't mean their lousy technichians.

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I came to skating because some of my friends I was taking ballett classes with were skaters - I can't jump and I've never done an "ISI Alpha program" as you said. Which doesn't mean I don't know the difference between a "brilliant technician" and someone who can skate a program without falling. A brilliant technician is somebody who knows to execute the required technique without any accustomed mistake that happens every other time he/she attends the element. Do you really think this goes for Sasha?
Sometimes I can hardly divide her lutzes and flips, she's got such an odd entry changing the edge of her skate several times until the takeoff. What happened to her in the LP at Worlds with the spin when the circle she drew grew too big was already signed before in some of her performances. Her 2axel doesn't impress me that much either - it always seems so forced to me as if the axel was the hardest jump for her.
I don't say, she's "lousy" but what she has shown during the last season is nothing compared with what she could do.

Kara Bear, your Sasha banner at the top of this page is "Simply Stunning!"

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MM, I couldn't have planned a better place to put it!


As for the ""best ever" hyperbole" that NorthernLite spoke of, I think this is just a case of a journalist who doesn't know fs that well and who is being swayed by all the gushing s/he heard. Yes, Peggy and Dick do hype up US skaters and TT isn't going to say anything thats not absolutely positive. I think Sasha fans realize that shes not the greatest skater ever...yet, . But I know in my heart shes the best, medal or no medal...but hey, I always like to root for the underdog.
As for Sasha's technique, I know she has a long way to go on some moves, but thats one of the reasons I like her...the technical isn't everything. And shes one of the few skaters I've seen who can fall but carry on their program as if they hadn't, still keeping me involved. Now if only I was a judge.

Good technique does imply perfect or near perfect skating.... slips, falls, trips, etc. are not part of good technique. However, they do occur even among the elite. If they occur too often then there is a laxk of technique, and efforts to correct them are paramount.

Joe

Lest we forget, it is the NY Times journalist Frank Litsky saying things such as “Cohen's move has succeeded like a dream” and "[Cohen] may become No. 1 in the world, maybe even the best female skater ever,” not Sasha or her team. And it is Litsky quoting Peggy and Dick and also Sasha, and as I know from experience, the quotes can get pretty funky. Sometimes when people get especially upset with these kinds of articles, and not just about Sasha, but any skater, they write posts as if the skater her or himself is saying all these things. IMO, most sports writing on figure skating is rather a hybrid of sports and entertainment writing because of the entertainment element of skating, not to mention the glitz and the sex appeal. I'm not saying all figure skating journalists do this or that I like it (I don't), but a lot of writers do it and mostly what we read are articles on US skaters. Especially since entertainment journalism became very popular in the late '80s and early '90s, skaters such as Kristi, Nancy, Michelle, Tara, Naomi Nari Nam, Sarah, and AP in addition to Sasha have had many of these same kinds of articles written about them. Before the '94 Olympics, the New York Times had a half page article just on Nancy Kerrigan's costumes and after the Olympics, there was a full review of what all the top ladies wore. So for me, I get frustrated with journalists who treat ladies skaters more as TV stars or beauty pageant contestants than as athletes.

With this article, for example, when you look at the actual number of lines focused on hype and fluff vs. Sasha’s actual skating (use the printer-friendly format) I counted 29 lines on what I’ll call “gush and fluff,” 13 lines on Sasha’s actual skating, and four lines on music, which is kind of in between, IMO. Relevant, but a little fluffy. To me, that’s the journalist’s fault, not the skater’s. But as a couple of people have said, these articles are for the casual fan, not techno fans like us Although not ideal, I would like to have at least one serious sports article about a given figure skater for every two “gush and fluff” article out there. The PR people can try to get coverage, but they can’t control what the coverage will be like, which is as it should be. The problem is that most journalists write about skaters as if they were on the skater’s PR staff--especially when it’s a US skater.

OTOH, this kind of coverage is not limited to figure skating. Just look at Anna "Never Won a Tournament" Kournikova and the coverage she's gotten. In NY's Times Square there's a giant billboard of Kournikova in a sports bra advertisement with the ad line, "Only the ball should bounce." Yup, that’s serious sports, lol.

Ideally I would like to see the coverage of ladies figure skating in general go more hard sports and for example with Sasha, analyze her successes during the GP series and GPF as well as her problems at Nationals, Worlds, and Hersheys and leave out the fluff about Sasha’s name. We can get that in People magazine. From the NY Times I expect more about her skating. My annoyance is with this journalist and the figure skating media in general, not with Sasha and other skaters who all get articles like this. No doubt Sasha's PR team at least gave consent for the interviews and at most arranged for the article to be written. Nevertheless, it is the journalist and his editors who decide what will be in the article, not Sasha's PR team and certainly not Sasha.

As for endurance, here's why a 4 minute skating program is especially difficult. Those who know track and field know that the 400 meters is considered the most brutal race even though it lasts less than a minute. The 400 meters and the 4-minute figure skating LP are similar in that the athlete must depend mostly on the anaerobic glycolysis energy producing system, also known the lactic acid system, to produce the body’s energy molecule, adenosine triphosphate (ATP) in order to do the activity. If you’ll forgive me for getting a bit technical, the body produces energy (the ATP molecule) by converting sugar (glucose) into energy by using one of the body’s three energy producing systems: The immediate energy system (ATP-PC), which can produce extremely high energy for just a few seconds (this would be for jumping in figure skating); the short term energy system (glycolysis or anaerobic system), which can produce high energy for 30-60 seconds (this would be for a difficult footwork section or other similar high energy sections lasting 30-60 seconds); or the long term energy system (aerobic), which can produce medium-high energy for about 12-15 minutes (this system is used for some of the in-between choreography or stroking). As you can see from the figure skating examples, these systems don’t work exclusively of each other; they work together in order of time and work load so that, for example, in 90 seconds of maximal all out stroking, about the first 10% of the total work uses the ATP-PC system to produce energy; the next 10% to 55% of the total work uses the anaerobic glycolysis system; and the last 45% of the total work uses the aerobic system. As you get into the last 45%, however, the energy output starts to decline simply because the aerobic system cannot support the kind of maximal output the other systems can; in other words, you’re getting tired not only in general, but also biochemically. Even so, in this example we have 90 seconds of stroking as hard and as fast as you can. Compare this to just 30 seconds of maximal stroking and you get the ATP-PC system for the first 25% of total work (10% when it was 90 seconds); the anaerobic glycolysis system for the next 25% to 75% of total work (10%-55% during 90 sec); and the aerobic system for just the last 25% of total work (45% for 90 sec).

The point is, the amount of work each energy system contributes during maximal energy output depends very much on how long you’re trying to put out that maximal effort. Also, as you get into the aerobic system, you can work longer but only at a submaximal effort.

Back to the 4 minutes LP in figure skating. As Joe illustrated so well with Li, he looks like gold for the first two minutes, podium for the third minute, and like “What happened?” for the last minute. This is a classic failure of the anaerobic glycolysis system. Li comes bursting out of the blocks with an almost perfect quad in the first 10 seconds (ATP-PC), goes between using both the ATP-PC system and anaerobic glycolysis for jumps and his explosive moves and powerful stroking during the first two minutes very well; in the third minute his ATP-PC system is completely used up and he’s starting to flag because his anaerobic glycolysis system is not able to convert glucose to ATP and convert lactic acid to lactate dehydrogenase in the muscles fast enough to keep his power up; and in the last minute, Li’s legs no doubt feel like rubber because he has not trained properly in order for his anaerobic glycolysis system to rest and recover and rest and recover so that he remains strong throughout the entire program.

BTW, in the article on Sasha where she is quoted as saying, "I'm stronger now... Two weeks ago, for the first time, I finished my long program and said, 'Wow, I can breathe,'" I think she meant for the first time this year with this program, not the first time ever. Of course I can’t prove it because of the way it’s written, but here again is one of the problems with media coverage of figure skating--lack of clarity. In competition, one should be breathing hard at the end of a four-minute LP otherwise there wasn’t much to the program. It’s the skating that counts, which should look strong and IMO in Sasha’s case have two good hard jumps in the last minute.

As Joe also pointed out, and I think rightly and importantly so, I agree that it’s important that we not homogenize skaters. The kind of endurance problems Li has are not the kind Sasha has, IMO. Last season, with the exception of Campbell’s where Sasha did what I call her “drunken masters” final spin sequence, Cohen’s power has been strong throughout all four minutes of her programs. It’s the front-loading with the jumps and the lapses in what I call continuity that I think hurt her programs. I call it lack of continuity because she didn’t make the same mistake over and over; she made a different mistake in almost every competitive performance of her “Rach” LP. To me this indicates a problem more with motor skills than it does with endurance, although making sure you’re as strong as possible without overtraining goes hand in hand with having strong motor programs.

Those of you who were posting on GS last season may or may not recall when I posted the text from the interview Nancy Kerrigan did with Sasha on one of the Lifetime channel’s coverage of figure skating. Sasha discussed openly with Nancy that Tarasova did not believe in doing full runthroughs with jumps. Sasha said she would do a combination of things: runthroughs without jumps; the first half of the program with jumps, the second half without and vice versa; marking the program and doing just the jumps. Nancy was also very open with Sasha about saying, “I was never able to put a clean short and clean long together until after ‘93 Worlds [where Nancy’s LP was so bad she dropped from first after the short to fifth overall] my coach and I changed my training to include both full runthroughs with jumps and double runthroughs with jumps of my short and long programs.” Sasha was gracious, IMO, in thanking Nancy for her advice but saying that this was her coach’s approach, that so far it had been working well for her, and that she had improved her consistency over what she had when she was with Mr. Nicks, all of which was true at the time. Besides, what was she supposed to say? “Thanks, Nancy! I’m going to go tell Tatiana she’s all wrong right now!” Just kidding, though I do hope Nancy gave Sasha food for thought.

I also wrote at the end of the season that Sasha looked to me as if she had lost muscle mass compared to what she had with Nicks and that I didn’t think this was a good sign. She’s still very muscular, relatively speaking, but considering that those muscles are anaerobic energy-producing furnaces, a one kilogram difference in muscle mass can make a big difference in the anaerobic glycolysis system’s ability to produce energy at the end of a 4-minute LP. So I think the increase in off-ice training is a step in the right direction for Cohen.

However, I will echo other’s opinions and say as I said last season that even though every skater has unique needs, I think when it comes to the science of training there are certain standards for everyone. One of those is full and double runthroughs with jumps of both short and long programs. For some skaters, it’s mostly to build their endurance, the pure physiologic ability to do explosive skating for the full four or four and a half minutes. For other skaters, and I think Sasha is one of them, it’s mostly to hardwire their muscle memory so that every moment of the program, every edge and every transition becomes so deeply-ingrained into a successful series of motor programs that the skater could do it perfectly in her sleep.

Full and double runthroughs with jumps also helps the skater adapt to mistakes. There is always the X factor--hitting a rut, a bad patch of ice, a wonky landing. What full runthroughs do is prepare the skater for the unexpected. It is axiomatic that the more you practice a series of motor skills such as an alpha level figure skating LP in a way that is as much like competition conditions as possible, the better you will do in the actual competitive situation. This has been supported by research time and again with all kinds of activities. For example, when Tarasova was working with Ilia Kulik, she had him skate his competitive programs in as many performance situations as possible--in front of crowds, with the adrenaline, the unpredictable conditions, etc. He still had trouble with his LP the first year (IMO, due to trying to get used to the more complex choreography) and to a lesser extent in his second season with Tarasova (he had a back injury from about Sept. of ‘97 through the Olympics). But ultimately, he started peaking in about a six week period before the Olympics and as we know skated the most technically difficult Olympic program up to that point without a single mistake.

Which brings me to the other thing I would hope Tarasova and Cohen focus on this season: training periodization. This is just a fancy term for training so that you peak when you need to. Last season, Cohen started well in her GP events, especially Trophee Lalique, which I felt had both technique and feeling, but overall her competitors were not very strong and she had a couple of what I call “mental lapse” mistakes. Sasha had a ghastly LP at Nationals, a great performance at the GPF, and erratic performances at Worlds. So here again, we can’t even say she started strong and ended weak; IMO, she was inconsistently inconsistent. Thus I would like to see Cohen not push so hard during the fall GP series. Last season I think she felt she had to prove herself and justify her change to Tarasova. I hope that is completely out of her head now. IMO, the GP series should be approached as warm-up competitions for Nationals and Worlds. I’m not saying she shouldn’t try to win; it’s just that last season I felt she put so much energy into winning every GP competition that by the time Nationals and Worlds came around, she was overpressured and undertrained for Nats and plain worn out mentally and physically for Worlds. At the GPF, where the pressure was off, she skated extremely well.

So just read this thread, Sasha, and you’ll do great. We know everything
Rgirl