Free Dance

dorispulaski said:

You have to realize that I like to see the balletic stuff more in pairs than in dance, so to me, S&B's particular strength is a weakness, and leads to an inability to express the character of the dance in OD's, which is a pet peeve of mine. I am always happiest with teams with great OD's that really knock it out of the park with respect to showing character, or who at the very least seem to be trying to show character.

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Yes, we have different view at ice dance. For me balletic is maine thing for young ice dance skaters. And maybe i like classical teams more. And maybe i didnt see Meryl in ice dance at all in 90th, when all ice dancers must have ideal lines, hight.But now we have another times. But she even didnt have really expression, like small Khohlova/. I like Ryzanova/Gureiro too.
As for WCH - i dont know, wht happened. All four best teams have an injury. I think B/A have more time, than others for preparing for WCh/ I hope Isa will be ready.for WCh and all others too.
All this teams know Paso and didnt need a lot off time on it. I hope best will win

If you think all you need is for a girl to have long legs and pointy toes, why have them skate at all? Just hold a Miss Universe pageant and pick the tallest girl. Or just have them send in a photo with their measurements. That would be even more cheap a competition to hold. In the day, Khokhlova would not have made it either-too short. For that matter, back in the day, Delobel was too short.

And DomShabs, B&A, and F&S, where the girls are quite tall, have problems to overcome in the current sport.

These days, it is more of a sport. And with the addition of more athletic lifts, teams with a height difference have an advantage. (Actually S&B have a larger height difference than D&W.) And it is more about dance than about ballet, which I think is a good thing. Pairs is already about ballet-we don't need two nearly identical competitions.

You have to really give kudos to V&M who have great lifts and relatively close height, though.



But at least we can agree about R&G

npa said:

Yes, we have different view at ice dance. For me balletic is maine thing for young ice dance skaters.

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Balletic? What's that supposed to be? Moving like a ballet dancer but not being one? I don't really know what you're referring to. But figure skating is NOT ballet, my aunt is a ballet dancer and I can't stand all the ballet talk. While ballet is definitely a good basic and it can have positive impacts on what you're doing on the ice, it'll always be a different thing.
I'm sorry if this comment is a little harsh. It's not meant to be against you. It's just that I think ice dancing has very little to do with ballet and I'm glad that it is like that.

npa said:

At all i cant understand - i really see personality in S/B and didnt see it in Meryl Dawis - what a problem? Its look like you hate S/B - maybe because you see they could be your favorite team?

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This is something I think I can discuss. To me, and I'm perfectly aware that this may just be my opinion, Meryl is far, far better at interpreting the music. She has improved in expression rapidly, and she catches the eye much more than she used to. As doris pointed out, her expression in the Paso was particularly good- she was definitely channeling Krylova, but not to the extent of being OTT.

Yes, Emily is more balletic in her movements, but at this point in time that is her core strength, and ice dance is not necessarily all about being balletic. Everything I see with her comes across as very choreographed. IMO, she needs more time to develop her expression. It'll probably come, because as we saw with Meryl it doesn't happen right away. But it's interesting that the Hubbells, a younger team, already show much more personality than Samuelson/Bates.

I also have to agree with doris that Samuelson/Bates look much the same as last season. That's one of the things I like about Davis/White; they're not perfect by any means, but you can see them improving from one competition to the next.

I'm not saying Samuelson/Bates are not talented, because that would be an incredibly silly thing to say, but they do have their weaknesses. I look forward to seeing them improve in the future because they could definitely be a great team.

I like in ice dance teams like Krylova-Ovsynnikov was, Klimova-Ponomarenko, Grishuk-Platov, Usova-Julin, Navka....
You know higyt is not maybe so important, but girls need to have long legs, arms. Its only my opinion, And expression must go from you heart, not only because Marina said do this.
I can all understand - that good lines is very bad in ID, that Emily is bad, because she show best free leg position and because she have long arms and long legs. But i couldnt imaging how you could compare Meryl with Krylova???? In expression too. Its kill me, really.
I understand, that you love D/W, but guys - love them, but stop claim really greate dancers (like Krylova), please. I understand if you say, that Meryl is gtreate, that she is the best - its OK. But she never will be near Krylova in dancing - good this or bad.

This thread is a hoot.! On a side note, I wonder how long it will last between now and Worlds.

Anyway, It's been really interesting to read what everyone's preferences are among dance teams including the types of skills and qualities that are most valued. Dance has changed so much over the last forty years probably more than any other discipline. Technical standards, musical selections, choreography and of course, the costumes! Is it possible that many individuals' preferences for what they prefer to see on the ice is most affected by what the standard was at the time during which they started watching or became a fan of ice dance?

After all, there was a period of about a decade where the technical and music rules changed drastically at almost every ISU conference. Strictly ballroom, theatrical dance, social dance, and dance with vocals all had their heyday.

So I think it's quite possible that some fans may be a bit more rigid in the standards they apply to dance teams today based more or less on one particular preference. While it's great to know what you like, it's helpful to understand what others like as well and to realize that no one standard lasts forever in this discipline.

BTW, I completely agree with Doris about trying to appreciate teams who are not my faves. I have taken her advice over the years to give a second look to the performances of teams I did not appreciate in the past. She's absolutely correct about how educational it can be, especially when you remove to impulse to root for against the team you are watching. In hindsight, I can see why so many skaters won or lost, whether I liked them or not, because the standards vary over time. It also allows you to gain a finer appreciation for current teams and better assess their relative strengths and weaknesses.

jcoates said:

It also allows you to gain a finer appreciation for current teams and better assess their relative strengths and weaknesses.

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I agree with you on 100 %.
But all we know, that you could like team or not and nobody (especially fans) could change it at this moment.
My opinion - ice dance was made for bring beauty. And if most North American skaters didnt work with ballet teaches its doesnt mean they are on the right way (IMHO)
Whe D/W will win WCh and OG i try to ask Dorris - why.

npa said:

I like in ice dance teams like Krylova-Ovsynnikov was, Klimova-Ponomarenko, Grishuk-Platov, Usova-Julin, Navka....
You know higyt is not maybe so important, but girls need to have long legs, arms. Its only my opinion, And expression must go from you heart, not only because Marina said do this.
I can all understand - that good lines is very bad in ID, that Emily is bad, because she show best free leg position and because she have long arms and long legs. But i couldnt imaging how you could compare Meryl with Krylova???? In expression too. Its kill me, really.
I understand, that you love D/W, but guys - love them, but stop claim really greate dancers (like Krylova), please. I understand if you say, that Meryl is gtreate, that she is the best - its OK. But she never will be near Krylova in dancing - good this or bad.

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Oh goodness. I'm NOT saying Emily is bad. It's great that she has good lines, can point her toes and turn out, I'm NOT saying it's bad. Please don't turn my words into something I'm not saying.

As for the Meryl and Krylova thing, all that was said is that Meryl was channeling Krylova in her Paso expression. Meryl had dramatic expression without going overboard. That's it.

I'm done responding to you npa/pani/cleoc.

jcoates, this thread really is something isn't it lol. And you actually raise a good point about a fans standards possibly depending on when one started watching. I didn't really get into ice dance until the 2006/2007 season, but I appreciate and love a lot of the teams from 6.0.
I think ice dance has probably benefited the most from COP. It's definitely become more of a sport than it used to be. I appreciate the long lines and the pointed toes, but that's not all I'm looking for. That's just me though.

Gosh, why do we need to debate whether or not Meryl is better than Emily, or vice versa? S/B and D/W are my top two favorite teams, so I've been avoiding this thread, until now. They are both wonderful, in different ways. They're at two different places in their careers. They've had two completely different careers. In my opinion, both teams have loads of potential, and I can't wait to see what happens in the future.

Oh, and npa/pani/cleoc, I'm with the previous poster. I'm tired of you trying to stir up trouble. Why can't we cheer on S/B, D/W, B/A, and V/M?

lmarie086 said:

jcoates, this thread really is something isn't it lol. And you actually raise a good point about a fans standards possibly depending on when one started watching. I didn't really get into ice dance until the 2006/2007 season, but I appreciate and love a lot of the teams from 6.0.
I think ice dance has probably benefited the most from COP. It's definitely become more of a sport than it used to be. I appreciate the long lines and the pointed toes, but that's not all I'm looking for. That's just me though.

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I agree with you about the discipline becoming more of sport. Now it's about the skating, so if what's happening between the blade and the ice is not good, the rest doesn't matter all that much. Dance really has struggled with that at times, because it is the most subtle skating discipline. It was often hard for casual viewers to get why more entertaining or theatrical teams (Duchesnays) lost to teams who were better technicians (Klimova/Ponomarenko) in one era, after those same technicians consistently lost to more theatrical skaters (Bestemianova/Bukin) in the previous one.

I've been watching dance for 20 years and have had a few faves along the way (especially Klimova/Ponomarekno, Anisina/Peizerat, and Lang/Tchernyshev) but mainly because they were attractive couples who skated pleasing programs that moved me. But as a discipline, ice dance ranked a consistent fourth for me during much of that time because of the opaque and inconsistent standards which were often applied and the fact that most commentators did not know what they were talking about. To my less trained eye it was very hard to get into it back then. Now, thanks in part the standards which COP has set, it's easier for me to look back at past Olympic cycles and appreciate the programs dancers put out. I have to say that at this point, dance is my favorite of all the disciplines.

Cheers

I grew up with Astaire/Rogers' romantic ballroom dances which were just that 'ballroom' not ballet but maybe a splash of Tap Dancing. When Charisse entered the films, she and Fred or Gene became ballet style ballroom dances. It did not for me continue to be ballroom, but more of a pas de deux and so I am confused at what is expected of Skate Dance couples. Can anyone explain what is expected in the FD?

Joe, I certainly can't. But I can explain what is expected in an OD or a CD, which is why I like them both so much.

Seriously, in an FD, you are supposed to do a synchronized twizzle, a pair spin, 4 lifts, one of which may be a combination, 2 different step sequences, and an optional, unscored, transition lift. That's the requirements. You are supposed to do them so you can get level 4 or level 3 on all of them. People like to see you have good speed and very deep edges to get a good skating skills mark.

However, if you can't do 4 good level 4 lifts, you're in trouble for 50% of the technical mark.

The PCS seem more opaque to me, and you can choose whatever you want to skate to including I suppose, the "musical" works of John Cage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q865x7K_QP4

or to Who Let the Dogs Out.

Joesitz said:

I grew up with Astaire/Rogers' romantic ballroom dances which were just that 'ballroom' not ballet but maybe a splash of Tap Dancing. When Charisse entered the films, she and Fred or Gene became ballet style ballroom dances. It did not for me continue to be ballroom, but more of a pas de deux and so I am confused at what is expected of Skate Dance couples. Can anyone explain what is expected in the FD?

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There is really no prescribed style of dance the ISU is mandating in the FD anymore. That pretty much ended after the 98 Olympics, in part because it became too creatively restrictive. Instead, there are required elements that make each FD more judge-able while leaving the type of music and program up to the skater. Of course they still have to dance, more or less, to the rhythm rather than the melody.

I think the key is to fulfill the concept of whatever style of dance the team chooses to use, whether that's ballroom (not used too much these days), latin, storytelling, or a theme, while still maintaining excellent skating skills and quality elements. Whatever style is chosen, it's important for the teams to make it unique and their own. That doesn't mean it has to be innovative, just that it should stand out rather than looking generic. The elements should accentuate the style of the dance and weave from one to the other with really good linking steps, a variety of holds and other skating movements. Weaker teams often try to get high levels first and worry less about how they express the dance. Stronger teams mesh the concept, choreography and technical elements better more seamlessly.

Does this help?

Thank you Doris and jcoates - OK. There are technical requirements in the FD, but no restrictions on style. So I believe one couple could skate to a medley of distinct Latin Rythms and another couple could skate to a European-like music by combining say, a waltz and a quick step. Still others could use diverse music of the Opera, etc.

Since the CoP doesn't lend itself to comparing couples, each couple would be judged on the Definitions of the ISU on whatever music chosen, and rhythm and style would be paramount in judging. Yes?

No. The TES is strictly on technique. The PCS have 5 components. Skating Skills & Linking Footwork/Movements are still really about technique of TES non-scored elements. 2 of the remaining 3 components, choreography & performance, are solely about style, and the third, interpretation/timing is mixed grill. Timing is perhaps the most objective item out there, if judged correctly. I don't at all see why it was grouped with interpretation, but that's how it is.

But in general, most of COP is against some standard, with the exception of 2 or 3 of the 5 PCS components, rather than against other couples.