ITA with you! I'm not sure why Evan gets so much "hate" on the boards. It's ridiculous. As for Jeremy Abbot and Brandon Mroz- well I think jumping on that gun is very premature. Evan has proved time and time again that while he may not be the best skater out there and makes his share of mistakes, he never gives up on a competition or a program. I am not a fan of Evan but he has earned my respect. I also think that Evan has the best mind set for pro skating because he works on relating to the audience.
Article with some interesting quotes from Eldredge
- Thread starter MissIzzy
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ITA with you! I'm not sure why Evan gets so much "hate" on the boards. It's ridiculous. As for Jeremy Abbot and Brandon Mroz- well I think jumping on that gun is very premature. Evan has proved time and time again that while he may not be the best skater out there and makes his share of mistakes, he never gives up on a competition or a program. I am not a fan of Evan but he has earned my respect. I also think that Evan has the best mind set for pro skating because he works on relating to the audience.
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- Jun 27, 2003
I don't see why it's the CoP's fault that the skater skates the same basic routine just to different music... especially when that skater uses the same basic theme of music... big powerful stuff.
This year he went out on a limb with Gershwin (though sticking with well known pieces...) but he gets the extra TT flapping stuff... which I didn't like on Yagudin either...
I didn't get the flailing comments when it was about Carmen which is still my favorite LP of his... Tosca annoyed me. And he definitely flails/flaps in his latest LP... or did I didn't notice it as much at 4CC for some reason...
Yes, the choreographer gets some of the 'credit' for it... but we all know MK tweaked the heck out of her programs... and I'm sure frank and Evan play around with his too (Kurt mentioned he'd changed things in the SP they worked on together, IIRC)
This year he went out on a limb with Gershwin (though sticking with well known pieces...) but he gets the extra TT flapping stuff... which I didn't like on Yagudin either...
I didn't get the flailing comments when it was about Carmen which is still my favorite LP of his... Tosca annoyed me. And he definitely flails/flaps in his latest LP... or did I didn't notice it as much at 4CC for some reason...
Yes, the choreographer gets some of the 'credit' for it... but we all know MK tweaked the heck out of her programs... and I'm sure frank and Evan play around with his too (Kurt mentioned he'd changed things in the SP they worked on together, IIRC)
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- Feb 9, 2009
I think it is too soon to give the stage over to Jeremy Abbott so quickly. He has had a great year so far but I would like to see how he holds up next season with titles to defend. As for Brandon, he had a great skate at Nationals(although that costume was hideous, imo) but wasn't all that great at 4C's. Anyone can have a great event but how many can keep it going. Johnny and Evan have done that. Both have won Multiple National medals, both are world meadlist, and have more expirence I wouldn't count them out just yet:no:
If a skater is to maximize points - and that's what the COP brought about - a way of knowing exactly what garners the most points - it makes sense to keep the ones that successfully do that.
Keeping them in much the same order also makes sense for competition as it cuts down on having to retrain muscle memory.
Choosing music that suits the skaters style - for competition - also makes sense if the object is to garner points, which under the COP it certainly is. It would be ridiculous for a powerful, dramatic skater to suddenly change his/her spots for something softer - again for competitions. By the same token, it would look ridiculous for a more lyrical skater to go for the power stuff.
Smart competitors stick with what works best for them. Evan went out on a limb this season to expand his horizons. I think that was very smart for next season when he'll take all that he's learned the past two to bring his skating up yet another level.
What he - or any of the skaters for that matter - does for exhibitions is another matter all together. As far as I'm concerned he's one of the most versatile skaters on the ice today when it comes to pushing the envelope for show numbers. He's tried about everything there is that is different from his competitive numbers.
As others have pointed out, one great "skate" or one break out season is just that. Let's wait and see how long it lasts before it's out with the old and in with the new. It's way too soon to give the stage over to others. He - and others of his "class" - isn't done with it yet nor are they.
Different strokes, for different folks. That's what makes skating - and life - so much fun!
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- Jun 27, 2003
the CoP excuse doesn't hold much weight. It's just easier, it doesn't mean they can't max out their points in other ways, they just don't want to take that 'risk' (which is a minor one.)
and honestly I think the skaters who say they can't be creative in the CoP couldn't be anymore creative in the 6.0...
and honestly I think the skaters who say they can't be creative in the CoP couldn't be anymore creative in the 6.0...
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- Jul 11, 2003
I'm not sure why you wrote that. Choreography is he key component to creativity - not tricks. And the skater must enhance that choreography. The CoP restrictions make it tougher than the 6.0 system. Of course, showing some relationship and feeling for the music in both systems is paramount. That, however, is an age factor. I think Evan is now old enough to give his audience a sample of his feelings for Gershwin.Tonichelle;372729{/QUOTE said:
As for tricks. Double axels both ways is a very pretty move, but the CoP precludes (not disallows) that on the number of jumps one is aloud. There is more points for other jumps and CoP will count these axels as two jumps and lose the single beauty in them. Forget about that wonderful trick.
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- Feb 9, 2009
Why thank you Mathman!
On the contrary, I respectuflly disagree. I think it holds a lot of weight - and is a reason not an excuse for most skaters.
Let's keep in mind this is competition where maxing points is paramount. From what I've read and heard about the COP it is much more restrictive on what garners most points, how many times each element can be used - and still count. Creativity is not well rewarded - if even considered - when counting points. (don't get me started on the subjectivity of GOEs or PCS) Any smart competitor will minimize risks - even minor ones. Most of them don't like it, but know they have to do it when scores and results are determined by 100ths of a point.
They also know that no matter what they do, they are at the mercy of technical callers and judges who often seem just as lost in implementing the COP rules as the skaters, coaches and choreographers are in incorporating them.
Kurt Browning once said that Choreography is math since the COP. Where does that leave room or time for creativity? Creativity imo comes with familiarity. A program doesn't necessarily reach its full, expressive potential in the first season. Even knowing that, most elite skaters do new programs each season in an effort to enhance skills, stretch comfort zones, grow as athletes, even maybe to please fans, etc.
In order to get the most familiarity out of a new program, I think it's a no brainer that a skater would keep some of the same elements - along with the accompanying entrances and exits - so as not to have to totally retrain muscle memory. Part of the ease and "creativity" comes with being able to - quoting Scott Hamilton - "[not] think, just do!" If you totally reconstruct a program, it would need more than one season to reach that point.
I can't count how many times fans post on forums how they wish a particular skater - insert any name - would do something new if they happen to keep a program longer than one season. Seems they can't win no matter what they do in the eyes of fans - all of whom have different ideas on what we like - and rightly so.
So for me, I don't care what music they use or how they string the elements together for competition - as long as it suits their style and they are comfortable with it. In compeition and under the COP - what matters is how WELL they do what they do.
They can go as far outside the box as they want in EX when points don't count, the judges have gone home, and they skate for the pure fun of it. That's the reward - and ours - for them having done so well in the competition, despite the pitfalls that lurk on every inch of the ice and in the judging pit as well.
I don't envy any of them figuring out how to put the programs together. I'm just grateful they take the time to do it and make the effort to be the best they can be. The fans are the winners every time.
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- Feb 5, 2004
I have to agree with that! For me Todd seemingly had the same boring program for a number of years, with similar boring costumes and nothing drew me into his performances. The first thing i thought was "how ironic".Ant
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- Feb 5, 2004
And under 6.0 in internationl competitions we used to see jumps in both directions....oh that's right never! It's got nothing to do with COP and everything to do with how hard such a thing is.
Ant
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Well, not never, but never by a major competitor. Rohene Ward used to do them at his competitions, Liberty, Detroit, Regionals and Sectionals.
And right now, Kazuka does a triple one way and a double the other in his exhibition.
Certainly infrequently.
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Ahh. But Rohene did do some lower tier internationals in 2002. He competed at the Vienna Cup. The proof is, here's his exhibition program. Now he always did that jump one way, jump the other shtick, up until the last couple of years. What he did not always do, being Rohene, was land it, so I don't know if he ever did more than attempt it in international competition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAdIn-NFKhc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAdIn-NFKhc
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- Jul 11, 2003
My point was that doing jumps in both directions would get credit in the 6.0 system. as difficult moves. It will in the CoP also, but in the CoP it counts as an extra jump with no bonus for difficulty and Zayak Rules means: why do it?
It is difficult to execute the same jump in both directions. That is the main reason it is seen infrequently.. For the skater who can jump in both directions, it is not worth the effort under the CoP because it's not considered difficult on points, and the zayak rule applies. Why bother?
It is difficult to execute the same jump in both directions. That is the main reason it is seen infrequently.. For the skater who can jump in both directions, it is not worth the effort under the CoP because it's not considered difficult on points, and the zayak rule applies. Why bother?
Why bother is right - in competition. I suspect that's why, if it's done at all, it's in the EX.
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How do you know they got credit? Did it say so in the rules? Which skaters landed them in competition and how did their technical or artistic score differ from normal? The answer is no-one ever did (did Rohene ever land his jumps in both directions?) so you don't know what 6.0 would have done with it - and looking at a lone technical mark wouldn't have made you any the wiser.
That is my point - this isn't a COP vs 6.0 discussion. This is simply a - it never happened because it is so darn difficult. Nothing to do with COP. And 6.0 continuing as it did would have had no more people attempting jumps in both directions.
Now if the COP was tweaked in lines with some people's suggestions so that jumping in both directions was rewarded then we might see it more.
Why bother? Well no-one (except maybe Rohene) thought there was any reason to do so in competition. No need to blame COP for that!
Ant
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