How Hot Is Junior Worlds - Japan, Czech Rep, Russia

herios · Feb 21, 2009

PolymerBob said:
Yes, there seems to be quite a bit of discussion on this and other message boards on this topic ..... especially among us American fans. You see, we had 3 junior men, and 5 ( that's right, FIVE ) junior ladies make the Junior Grand Prix Final. The feeling is we should give these skaters priority at Junior Worlds.

I don't think it's really anybody's fault, and I don't think anyone is intentionally trying to screw anybody. It just seems there is no clear-cut definition of what a "junior" is. Perhaps the ISU will clarify this by next season.

No matter the angle you try to look at this one, USFSA really looks silly. Desperation or hunger for hardware or whatever you might call it, the decision to send Caroline Zhang over there for example, is more like an insult to her. Like "You go there because you belong to juniors".
Zhang took gold 2 years ago, then silver, what if she gets now a bronze? That would be hilarious!

She better stayed home and work on her power stroking, that would be more efficient!

chuckm · Feb 21, 2009

wonderlen3000 said:
I don't think it's fair for the young skaters. Once a skater moved into senior rank and competition, they should not allow to go back. It's kindda like, 'hey i can't make it to the class A, so i'll settle for class B.' Looks like U.S is really desperate for medel to send 3 seniors ladies to spoil the kids party.

Alena Leonova skated at Euros (a Senior ISU Competition), and will also compete at Senior Worlds, yet no one is complaining that she's back to Juniors at JW.

Is the grumbling because it's two US skaters who have both medaled at JW before, and are podium contenders again? Seems like sour grapes to me.

I see nothing wrong with these ladies competing at Junior Worlds, since the ISU rules allow it.

And anyway, it's NOT a 'kid's party'. There are four 19-year-olds (Gedevanishvili, Gozeva, Kang and Robertson); six 18-year-olds ( Leonova, Hacker, Rio, Szmiett, Fuentes, Riordan); twelve 17-year-olds; seven 16-year-olds. The average age of the 54 competitors is 16, and more than half of them are old enough to skate at Senior Worlds.

Eurofan · Feb 21, 2009

I think Leonova's situation is different. The girls who finished first and second at Russian Jr. Nats are the same two (Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva) who finished first and second at senior Nats. They're only twelve, so they're too young for JW.

chuckm · Feb 21, 2009

dancemaster said:
I just hope we don't see yet another Canadian technical specialist heading the teck panel in the dance

Why would that be a problem? It isn't as if the Canadian teams (Ralph/Hill, Routhier/Saucke-Lacelle, Harvey/Gagnon) are prime medal contenders, at least not this year.

dancemaster · Feb 21, 2009

chuckm said:
Why would that be a problem? It isn't as if the Canadian teams (Ralph/Hill, Routhier/Saucke-Lacelle, Harvey/Gagnon) are prime medal contenders, at least not this year.

well it seems the Canadians technical specialist ( ice dance)get more then they fair share of assignments. :biggrin:

and they do tend to be pro Spilband

PolymerBob · Feb 21, 2009

herios said:
No matter the angle you try to look at this one, USFSA really looks silly. Desperation or hunger for hardware or whatever you might call it, the decision to send Caroline Zhang over there for example, is more like an insult to her. Like "You go there because you belong to juniors".
Zhang took gold 2 years ago, then silver, what if she gets now a bronze? That would be hilarious!

She better stayed home and work on her power stroking, that would be more efficient!

While I totally see the point of the point of the people who want "real" junior skaters in Bulgaria, if that can't happen, then Caroline going is the next best thing. It was so un-cool the way she got screwed out of her senior Worlds spot. :scowl: Caroline should have been 1st or 2nd at Nationals. At least now she can make history as the first repeat ladies' champion. :clap:

Mathman · Feb 21, 2009

PolymerBob said:
At least now she can make history as the first repeat ladies' champion.

Junior Worlds trivia:

1. What pairs team won junior worlds as a pair and also each won in singles.

2. What pairs team won junior worlds three times.

3. What pairs team won junior worlds twice but not in consecutive years?

4. What two brothers each won junior worlds. (Hint: it is not Hayes Alan and David Jenkins.

)

Medusa · Feb 21, 2009

Without looking at Wiki, right?

1. Yamaguchi / Galindo? (not sure, didn't Galindo only win Bronze?)
2. Totmianina / Marinin?
3. Zhang / Zhang?
4. I am quite sure that I know this for sure - the Petrenko brothers.

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 21, 2009

Fashionista said:
No, it's insider's information. And that's right, he has a chickenpox.

At his age, that can be serious. Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

museksk8r · Feb 21, 2009

My gold medal hopes:

Men: Michal BREZINA

Ladies: Katrina HACKER

Pairs: Lubov ILIUSHECHKINA / Nodari MAISURADZE

Ice Dance: Madison HUBBELL / Keiffer HUBBELL

chuckm · Feb 22, 2009

PolymerBob said:
Yes, there seems to be quite a bit of discussion on this and other message boards on this topic ..... especially among us American fans. You see, we had 3 junior men, and 5 ( that's right, FIVE ) junior ladies make the Junior Grand Prix Final. The feeling is we should give these skaters priority at Junior Worlds.

I don't think it's really anybody's fault, and I don't think anyone is intentionally trying to screw anybody. It just seems there is no clear-cut definition of what a "junior" is. Perhaps the ISU will clarify this by next season.

4 of the 5 Ladies who competed at the JGPF competed as Seniors at the 2009 US Championships: Maxwell (8th), Gilles (9th), Musademba (10th) and Bereswill (19th). Dobbs competed in Juniors and was 7th. If any of the JGPF ladies who competed as Seniors had finished in the top 5 or 6, they might have been sent to JW. Amanda Dobbs would have to have finished 1st or 2nd as a Junior to have a shot at JW.

The ISU defines "Junior" and "Senior" by AGE ONLY. They tried to change the age boundaries last season, but that attempt was not accepted by the federations. The US and other countries define "Junior and "Senior" strictly by SKILL LEVEL; skaters take a test to earn the right to skate at the next higher level.

Note that many of the other JW competitors skate as Senior nationally: Kang and Szmiett (CAN), Leonova and Gozeva (RUS), Rio (ITA), Robertson (GBR), Hecken (GER), Meite (FRA), to name just a few.

Alicja · Feb 22, 2009

chuckm said:
Note that many of the other JW competitors skate as Senior nationally: Kang and Szmiett (CAN), Leonova and Gozeva (RUS), Rio (ITA), Robertson (GBR), Hecken (GER), Meite (FRA), to name just a few.

Yes, they do but where's the point. Take e.g. Meite and Hecken, they are allowed to skate at the Senior level nationally but they are not age-eligible for Senior Worlds, neither did they compete on the Senior GP circuit. Gozeva is eligible but she didn't compete in the Senior GP, she only attended Senior B competitions and JGP. Both Kang and Szmiett never competed as Seniors outside of Canada. Why should this have an impact on whether they're allowed to skate at JW or not?

I can understand the concern about skaters who competed in the SGP and attended Worlds, Europeans or 4CCs though

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 22, 2009

I do believe that the top US Senior Ladies are all just about equal as far as representing the USA in the Olys. I agree with the ISU that the Junior Division should be according to age. I believe the USA is using the 'Skill' so that they can appease at least 3 skaters who will not be going to LA. If Czisny and Flatt earn the 13 points, it will be difficult not to let them go to the Olys. The third sport will be picked by the winner of the Junior Worlds this year! How much US Nats in 2010 will count is not certain.

But, please bring back the age requirement. It's kind of dumb to read the age of the juniors over 15. They could go to or back to Intermediate and if place, then on to Seniors.

chuckm · Feb 22, 2009

dancemaster said:
I just hope we don't see yet another Canadian technical specialist heading the teck panel in the dance

Too bad! The TS for Ice Dance at JW is none other than Shae ZUKOWSKI of Canada.

chuckm · Feb 22, 2009

Alicja said:
Yes, they do but where's the point. Take e.g. Meite and Hecken, they are allowed to skate at the Senior level nationally but they are not age-eligible for Senior Worlds, neither did they compete on the Senior GP circuit. Gozeva is eligible but she didn't compete in the Senior GP, she only attended Senior B competitions and JGP. Both Kang and Szmiett never competed as Seniors outside of Canada. Why should this have an impact on whether they're allowed to skate at JW or not?

I can understand the concern about skaters who competed in the SGP and attended Worlds, Europeans or 4CCs though

Gozeva didn't get GP assignments because she didn't place high enough at Russian Nationals the past few years.

In Canada, only the top 5 at Nationals are on the National team and get preference when it comes to GP assignments. Before this season, when they placed 4th and 5th at Nationals, Szmiett and Kang were 10th and 13th as Seniors in '08, and in '07, Szmiett was 13th as a Senior and Kang was 11th as a Junior. And only the top 2 or 3 get to go to Senior ISU Championships.

This past season, Sarah Hecken was quoted as saying she didn't want to do the JGP again, but wanted to do GP instead. But because she didn't make the JGPF and didn't medal at 2008 JW, she wasn't guaranteed any GP invitations, while Annette Dytrt (who finished top 12 at Worlds) was guaranteed two. Since Germany isn't a host nation, there was no possibility of Sarah getting in the GP this past season.

Again: THE ONLY ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENT FOR JW IS AGE.

There is nothing "illegal" about skaters doing GP, 4CC/Euros, Senior Worlds and then also doing JW. The smell of sour grapes is very strong.....

Alicja · Feb 22, 2009

I know that it's not illegal. I have absolutely no problem with age being the only requirement for eligibility. But I see why some people are concerned about skaters moving up to Seniors BOTH nationally and internationally and then go back to JW because they didn't place high enough to go to Senior Worlds. Nevertheless, I believe the rules are okay the way they are because preventing skaters who entered a Senior event from going back to Juniors would definitely turn out to be a disadvantage to nations who do not have the sort of depth in skating as e.g. the USA. I, for example, cannot think of ONE convincing reason why Karly Robertson of GB shouldn't be allowed to go to JW just because she went to Europeans.

ETA:

There is nothing "illegal" about skaters doing GP, 4CC/Euros, Senior Worlds and then also doing JW. The smell of sour grapes is very strong.....

Sour grapes because of what?? Sorry but I don't get that statement at all...

csparkles · Feb 22, 2009

chuckm said:
Too bad! The TS for Ice Dance at JW is none other than Shae ZUKOWSKI of Canada.

Good! Someone knowledgeable and ethical who has firm consistant standards. Works for me.

chuckm · Feb 22, 2009

Alicja said:
Sour grapes because of what?? Sorry but I don't get that statement at all...

Because Carolyn Zhang is the 2007 JW Champion and 2008 JW silver medalist, and Ashley Wagner is the 2007 JW bronze medalist. Obviously, both of these ladies have a very good chance of making the JW podium again.

If all the ladies who've done GP, 4CC or Euros were eliminated---Zhang, Gedevanishvili, Leonova, Wagner, Reitmayerova, Lafuente, Robertson,
Johnson, Gijsman, Hacker, Liu---the other skaters would have a much better shot at winning medals.

,

oleada · Feb 22, 2009

Oh, please. Even if the US sent Maxwell, Rizo etc, the girls you mentioned likely wouldn't medal. It isn't about that. Notice that people are also mentioning Gedevanishvili and Leonova in this argument. It's not sour grapes and it's not like the they are picking on the US. A lot of the people like the skaters mentioned AND still think they shouldn't compete at Junior Worlds. The reasons used for arguing that Zhang/Wagner/Gedevanishvili/etc shouldn't go to Junior Worlds in this thread have been:

1.) Caroline & Ashley have already competed and medaled at JW, so Gilles/Maxwell, etc should get a chance to compete as well. They have had good seasons and should have the same chance that Zhang & co. did to qualify for GP assignments. Sending the same people over again is short sighted from the USFS.

2.) Wagner, Leonova, Gedevanishvili etc haven't competed as juniors all season. They have been to Worlds, 4CC, etc in some occasions multiple times and going back to Junior Worlds is regressing. Also, Junior Worlds should be kept for skaters who have been competing as Juniors internationally.

3.) They already won and there's no point going.

Doesn't seem like sour grapes to me. No one has said that they are doing anything illegal, just that perhaps the rules should be revised.

2. What pairs team won junior worlds three times.

Natalia Krestianinova & Alexei Torchinski. Don't think they did anything as seniors, though...

Another fun fact is that no team that has won Junior Worlds in dance has won Senior Worlds. Annissina & Averbukh won JW together but won Senior Worlds with different partners. Evgeny Platov, Sergey Ponomarenko, Oksana Grishuk & Roman Kostomarov won JW & SW with different partners. Delobel & Schoenfelder won Worlds, but finished second at JW (to Kostomarov & his partner, actually). Belbin & Agosto and Virtue & Moir have come the closest, winning JW and World silver.

lisou · Feb 22, 2009

oleada said:
. Belbin & Agosto and Virtue & Moir have come the closest, winning JW and World silver.

Please, please, please, don't jinx Virtue & Moir !
Oh and... COME ON FLORENT !!! :clap:

How Hot Is Junior Worlds - Japan, Czech Rep, Russia

herios

chuckm

Eurofan

chuckm

dancemaster

PolymerBob

Mathman

Medusa

Joesitz (RIP)

museksk8r

chuckm

Alicja

Joesitz (RIP)

chuckm

chuckm

Alicja

csparkles

chuckm

oleada

lisou

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