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Thread: Ladies Solo SP Jump

  1. #1
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Ladies Solo SP Jump

    I have finally gotten round to watching my recording of the Ladies SP at Europeans and was pretty surprised to see the majority of the ladies not even bothering to try to put steps before their solo jumps. Even more surprised to see that the judges are not seemingly not using the GOE to penalise for this.

    Some of the ladies attempted triple loops from a series of three turns (Lepisto, Korpii). Some of the ladies used the mohawk, cross step entrance to their Lutzes (McCorkell) which i presume counts as a steps preceding the jump but a whole bunch of them simply did triple flips with no steps leading into the jump (Poykio immediately came to mind, and a few skaters doing triple sals too). Before Kostner's error on the Lutz she had absolutely no steps she came down the rink and round the corner on a long BO edge but no steps.

    Has anyone else noticed this, and can anyone comment on how the ladies did at 4CC, whether it seems to be more a european phenomenon or is it worldwide?

    Ant

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I'd love to see the 3Lutzes the required jump in the SP and check out the entry. I presume it is not used because it is too difficult.

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    Lutz (double or triple) is the required solo jump in the junior short program this year. See if you can find some JGP short programs online, or watch World Juniors later this week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I'd love to see the 3Lutzes the required jump in the SP and check out the entry. I presume it is not used because it is too difficult.


    Too hard.......at this level?

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Lutz (double or triple) is the required solo jump in the junior short program this year. See if you can find some JGP short programs online, or watch World Juniors later this week.
    I certainly plan to starting tomorrow, now that IN is showing Juniors.

    Winnipeg You don't see the dinges in the scores - there are many that were caught and others that got away with them. It's usually young skaters that rushed to get the high scores to fill up their jump quotas. Once a senior the technique of flutzing has been solidified. JMO from watching them.
    Last edited by Joesitz; 02-23-2009 at 02:10 PM.

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    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    Before Kostner's error on the Lutz she had absolutely no steps she came down the rink and round the corner on a long BO edge but no steps.
    I have noticed that and I have often wondered why Carolina Kostner doesn't attempt the 3-turn into 3loop as the solo triple in the SP as she used to back in 2005. The 3Lutz is such an inconsistent jump for her. At least she doesn't take an edge hit on it like many other ladies.

  7. #7
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    Has anyone else noticed this, and can anyone comment on how the ladies did at 4CC, whether it seems to be more a european phenomenon or is it worldwide?
    My impression is that the judges are universally lenient on the issue of what constitutes "steps and/or movements" preceeding the solo jump. Almost any little twitch or wiggle seems to be enough to escape penalty.

    On paper, the penalties in GOE are pretty severe.

    No steps/movements, -3, -GOE

    Only one step/movement, -2 GOE

    Steps/movements not immediately preceeding jump, -1 to -2 GOE.

    Sometimes a skater will miss the combo, then tack a second jump onto the intended solo jump so that they won't take the hit for not doing a combo. This ought to be negated by the -3 on the (now) solo jump, but I don't think the judges always do it.

    As for Four Continents, I didn't look at tapes, but by looking at the protocols I don't think any of the top ten got a reduction in GOE because of inadaquate footwork going into the solo jump. The top four in the SP, Kim (+1.4 on her 3Lz), Rochette, Phaneuf, and Suguri, all got positive GOE.

    Asada, Czisny, Flatt and Lacoste got major negative GOEs, but they all had obvious errors like falls, downgrades, and edge calls.

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    Thank you for this Post.

    Remember Sebestyen amazing footwork into her huge true Triple Lutz?? Or back in the day when Ladies had to do double jumps as the solo jump? I remember Bonaly would literally do a whole straight line footwork sequence with incredable speed into a double flip OR Nancy Kerrigan doing a Shoot-The-Duck into a double Lutz.

    What upsets me the most is that, skaters who MISS THEIR COMBO, and tack it on to the solo jump. No. No. AND NO! They should be penalize base on the fact that they are eliminating an important element from the Basic 8 Ladies Moves.

    Instead of seeing Under-rotated, Sloppy Triple-Triple Attempts. How about mastering the right edge and actually doing some moves into a Solo Jump??

    Ok, enough ranting....

  9. #9
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    My impression is that the judges are universally lenient on the issue of what constitutes "steps and/or movements" preceeding the solo jump. Almost any little twitch or wiggle seems to be enough to escape penalty.

    On paper, the penalties in GOE are pretty severe.

    No steps/movements, -3, -GOE

    Only one step/movement, -2 GOE

    Steps/movements not immediately preceeding jump, -1 to -2 GOE.

    Sometimes a skater will miss the combo, then tack a second jump onto the intended solo jump so that they won't take the hit for not doing a combo. This ought to be negated by the -3 on the (now) solo jump, but I don't think the judges always do it.

    As for Four Continents, I didn't look at tapes, but by looking at the protocols I don't think any of the top ten got a reduction in GOE because of inadaquate footwork going into the solo jump. The top four in the SP, Kim (+1.4 on her 3Lz), Rochette, Phaneuf, and Suguri, all got positive GOE.

    Asada, Czisny, Flatt and Lacoste got major negative GOEs, but they all had obvious errors like falls, downgrades, and edge calls.

    That's what i thought - i remembered reading teh -GOEguidelines for the solo jump but was left scratching my head about it. I always thought Joubert lacked steps into his solo triple flip before he swapped it for the lutz.

    The surprising thing is the number of ladies who literally do nothing before the solo jump. In 6.0 days i remember the steps preceding the jump were a really big deal and skaters got dinged all the time for either not having enough, or leaving to big a gap between the steps and the jump.

    My favourite of all time is Michelle's solo triple toe in her Romanza SP - that too was a like an entire straightline step sequence into it

    Ant

  10. #10
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    yeah i think this is also the main reason why the men never do a quad as the solo jump in the sp, its just too hard to do a quad "out of steps" and actually easier to do it in combination....although i did like that one season the ISU allowed the quad the sp but only as the solo jump out of step and NOT the combination .... ( i think that was 1999-2000 season??) ...lots of interesting sp's with quads out of steps that year!

    but ladies ( and men) should defintiely be penalised -3GOE NO EXCUSES!!! if they omit steps before the solo jump...thats a total cop out!...

  11. #11
    Rinkside
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    I like triple toe
    Last edited by Onlyhope; 02-24-2009 at 09:06 PM.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I think an element before a jump are two different elements unless the take-off is directly from the first element. A shoot-the-duck prohibits this. JMO

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    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I think an element before a jump are two different elements unless the take-off is directly from the first element. A shoot-the-duck prohibits this. JMO
    Kerrigan's shoot the duck into a 2Lutz was executed directly from element to element. See 6:57 into the video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFCny9O6jS0

  14. #14
    Sexy, smart and sterilized! childfreegirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TtonyV7 View Post
    Thank you for this Post.

    What upsets me the most is that, skaters who MISS THEIR COMBO, and tack it on to the solo jump. No. No. AND NO! They should be penalize base on the fact that they are eliminating an important element from the Basic 8 Ladies Moves.
    Not if they craft the program so that there are steps before both. If they end up doing steps before the combo, it should go toward the transitions score.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taan View Post
    ladies ( and men) should defintiely be penalised -3GOE NO EXCUSES!!! if they omit steps before the solo jump...thats a total cop out!...
    Huh? Certainly you should penalize for "telegraphing", but mandatory -3? Lack of entrance steps is equal to the worst possible mistakes on the landing? That's pretty ridiculous. And what about:

    lack of entry + perfect landing

    vs.

    lack of entry + terrible landing

    Both have to be -3 then? Makes no sense when -3 is the worst possible GOE.

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