Ladies Solo SP Jump | Golden Skate

Ladies Solo SP Jump

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
I have finally gotten round to watching my recording of the Ladies SP at Europeans and was pretty surprised to see the majority of the ladies not even bothering to try to put steps before their solo jumps. Even more surprised to see that the judges are not seemingly not using the GOE to penalise for this.

Some of the ladies attempted triple loops from a series of three turns (Lepisto, Korpii). Some of the ladies used the mohawk, cross step entrance to their Lutzes (McCorkell) which i presume counts as a steps preceding the jump but a whole bunch of them simply did triple flips with no steps leading into the jump (Poykio immediately came to mind, and a few skaters doing triple sals too). Before Kostner's error on the Lutz she had absolutely no steps she came down the rink and round the corner on a long BO edge but no steps.

Has anyone else noticed this, and can anyone comment on how the ladies did at 4CC, whether it seems to be more a european phenomenon or is it worldwide?

Ant
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I'd love to see the 3Lutzes the required jump in the SP and check out the entry. I presume it is not used because it is too difficult.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Lutz (double or triple) is the required solo jump in the junior short program this year. See if you can find some JGP short programs online, or watch World Juniors later this week.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Lutz (double or triple) is the required solo jump in the junior short program this year. See if you can find some JGP short programs online, or watch World Juniors later this week.
I certainly plan to starting tomorrow, now that IN is showing Juniors.

Winnipeg You don't see the dinges in the scores - there are many that were caught and others that got away with them. It's usually young skaters that rushed to get the high scores to fill up their jump quotas. Once a senior the technique of flutzing has been solidified. JMO from watching them.
 
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museksk8r

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
Before Kostner's error on the Lutz she had absolutely no steps she came down the rink and round the corner on a long BO edge but no steps.

I have noticed that and I have often wondered why Carolina Kostner doesn't attempt the 3-turn into 3loop as the solo triple in the SP as she used to back in 2005. The 3Lutz is such an inconsistent jump for her. At least she doesn't take an edge hit on it like many other ladies.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Has anyone else noticed this, and can anyone comment on how the ladies did at 4CC, whether it seems to be more a european phenomenon or is it worldwide?

My impression is that the judges are universally lenient on the issue of what constitutes "steps and/or movements" preceeding the solo jump. Almost any little twitch or wiggle seems to be enough to escape penalty.

On paper, the penalties in GOE are pretty severe.

No steps/movements, -3, -GOE

Only one step/movement, -2 GOE

Steps/movements not immediately preceeding jump, -1 to -2 GOE.

Sometimes a skater will miss the combo, then tack a second jump onto the intended solo jump so that they won't take the hit for not doing a combo. This ought to be negated by the -3 on the (now) solo jump, but I don't think the judges always do it.

As for Four Continents, I didn't look at tapes, but by looking at the protocols I don't think any of the top ten got a reduction in GOE because of inadaquate footwork going into the solo jump. The top four in the SP, Kim (+1.4 on her 3Lz), Rochette, Phaneuf, and Suguri, all got positive GOE.

Asada, Czisny, Flatt and Lacoste got major negative GOEs, but they all had obvious errors like falls, downgrades, and edge calls.
 

TtonyV7

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 11, 2007
Thank you for this Post.

Remember Sebestyen amazing footwork into her huge true Triple Lutz?? Or back in the day when Ladies had to do double jumps as the solo jump? I remember Bonaly would literally do a whole straight line footwork sequence with incredable speed into a double flip OR Nancy Kerrigan doing a Shoot-The-Duck into a double Lutz.

What upsets me the most is that, skaters who MISS THEIR COMBO, and tack it on to the solo jump. No. No. AND NO! They should be penalize base on the fact that they are eliminating an important element from the Basic 8 Ladies Moves.

Instead of seeing Under-rotated, Sloppy Triple-Triple Attempts. How about mastering the right edge and actually doing some moves into a Solo Jump??

Ok, enough ranting....
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
My impression is that the judges are universally lenient on the issue of what constitutes "steps and/or movements" preceeding the solo jump. Almost any little twitch or wiggle seems to be enough to escape penalty.

On paper, the penalties in GOE are pretty severe.

No steps/movements, -3, -GOE

Only one step/movement, -2 GOE

Steps/movements not immediately preceeding jump, -1 to -2 GOE.

Sometimes a skater will miss the combo, then tack a second jump onto the intended solo jump so that they won't take the hit for not doing a combo. This ought to be negated by the -3 on the (now) solo jump, but I don't think the judges always do it.

As for Four Continents, I didn't look at tapes, but by looking at the protocols I don't think any of the top ten got a reduction in GOE because of inadaquate footwork going into the solo jump. The top four in the SP, Kim (+1.4 on her 3Lz), Rochette, Phaneuf, and Suguri, all got positive GOE.

Asada, Czisny, Flatt and Lacoste got major negative GOEs, but they all had obvious errors like falls, downgrades, and edge calls.


That's what i thought - i remembered reading teh -GOEguidelines for the solo jump but was left scratching my head about it. I always thought Joubert lacked steps into his solo triple flip before he swapped it for the lutz.

The surprising thing is the number of ladies who literally do nothing before the solo jump. In 6.0 days i remember the steps preceding the jump were a really big deal and skaters got dinged all the time for either not having enough, or leaving to big a gap between the steps and the jump.

My favourite of all time is Michelle's solo triple toe in her Romanza SP - that too was a like an entire straightline step sequence into it :love:

Ant
 

Taan

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 27, 2003
yeah i think this is also the main reason why the men never do a quad as the solo jump in the sp, its just too hard to do a quad "out of steps" and actually easier to do it in combination....although i did like that one season the ISU allowed the quad the sp but only as the solo jump out of step and NOT the combination .... ( i think that was 1999-2000 season??) ...lots of interesting sp's with quads out of steps that year!

but ladies ( and men) should defintiely be penalised -3GOE NO EXCUSES!!! if they omit steps before the solo jump...thats a total cop out!...
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I think an element before a jump are two different elements unless the take-off is directly from the first element. A shoot-the-duck prohibits this. JMO
 

childfreegirl

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 6, 2004
Thank you for this Post.

What upsets me the most is that, skaters who MISS THEIR COMBO, and tack it on to the solo jump. No. No. AND NO! They should be penalize base on the fact that they are eliminating an important element from the Basic 8 Ladies Moves.

Not if they craft the program so that there are steps before both. If they end up doing steps before the combo, it should go toward the transitions score.
 

Particle Man

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
ladies ( and men) should defintiely be penalised -3GOE NO EXCUSES!!! if they omit steps before the solo jump...thats a total cop out!...

Huh? Certainly you should penalize for "telegraphing", but mandatory -3? Lack of entrance steps is equal to the worst possible mistakes on the landing? That's pretty ridiculous. And what about:

lack of entry + perfect landing

vs.

lack of entry + terrible landing

Both have to be -3 then? Makes no sense when -3 is the worst possible GOE.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Huh? Certainly you should penalize for "telegraphing", but mandatory -3? Lack of entrance steps is equal to the worst possible mistakes on the landing? That's pretty ridiculous. And what about:

lack of entry + perfect landing

vs.

lack of entry + terrible landing

Both have to be -3 then? Makes no sense when -3 is the worst possible GOE.

The rules are pretty specific (page 8).

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=934

The reason for the severe penalty for "no steps" is that "steps into a solo jump" is a required element of the Short Program: -3, -GOE.

In other words, the "no steps" aspect is an automatic -3 penalty, and if the other aspects of the jump are "adequate," then -3 is what you get for the element.

However if other aspects of the jump (like flow out of the landing, for instance) are exceptionally good, then you can earn back one or two of those points. The total GOE on the element must be negative, however.

In general, the CoP does not keep piling on negative GOE for more and more errors on the same element. If you have a bad entrance AND a wrong edge AND a bad air position AND a fall on the landing...that's still just -3 (plus the extra one point penalty for the fall.)

The only error that is piled on top of everything else, and in addition to all the other penalties, is underrotation.
 
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gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
In general, the CoP does not keep piling on negative GOE for more and more errors on the same element. If you have a bad entrance AND a wrong edge AND a bad air position AND a fall on the landing...that's still just -3 (plus the extra one point penalty for the fall.)

That was true of short program deductions under the 6.0 system as well. The maximum deduction was at least 0.4 though, in the last decade or so of the old system. I'm pretty sure that in the early 90s it was 0.5 and earlier than that up to 0.7 for the jump combination.

And, of course, the deduction (or several deductions for several flawed elements) was taken from one Required Elements score for the whole program.

The only error that is piled on top of everything else, and in addition to all the other penalties, is underrotation.

Also the fall deduction is piled onto anything else that might be wrong. So the worst penalty for one element in IJS would be -3 worth of GOE reductions AND a lower basemark for a downgraded jump AND an additional -1.00 for a fall.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
That was true of short program deductions under the 6.0 system as well. The maximum deduction was at least 0.4 though, in the last decade or so of the old system. I'm pretty sure that in the early 90s it was 0.5 and earlier than that up to 0.7 for the jump combination.

And, of course, the deduction (or several deductions for several flawed elements) was taken from one Required Elements score for the whole program.

And as I recall, it wasn't always completely clear that the judges were applying the penalty by the book. It seemed like sometimes a very good performance would end up with a suspiciously high score despite a "required" deduction.

gkelly said:
Also the fall deduction is piled onto anything else that might be wrong. So the worst penalty for one element in IJS would be -3 worth of GOE reductions AND a lower basemark for a downgraded jump AND an additional -1.00 for a fall.

I used to think that this was not fair because it results in a negative total score for the element.

But I changed my mind when I realized that the fall penalty was not assigned specifically to the element, but was the same as if the skater fell just skating along, not doing any element at all.
 
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