Why is the Lutz so difficult?

It looks like the "beast" for the Ladies, as well as the quad or the 3axel for the Men. Does anybody want to explain me why the Flip is an easier jump than the Lutz?

Basically, because the direction of rotation in the air is opposite to the direction of rotation of the edge leading into the jump.

You need to hold the edge going in one direction (clockwise on left back outside for most skaters) and then reverse the direction of rotation (to counterclockwise for most skaters) just at the moment of vaulting off the pick.

On all other multirotational jumps including the flip, the skater is already traveling in the same direction that the jump will rotate in the air.

gkelly said:

Basically, because the direction of rotation in the air is opposite to the direction of rotation of the edge leading into the jump.

You need to hold the edge going in one direction (clockwise on left back outside for most skaters) and then reverse the direction of rotation (to counterclockwise for most skaters) just at the moment of vaulting off the pick.

On all other multirotational jumps including the flip, the skater is already traveling in the same direction that the jump will rotate in the air.

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I don't get it yet:no: the first sentence... the rotation of the edge. what edge is rotating? the one which hits the ice or the other one? I still don't get the difference between flip and lutz, except the inside-outside edge thing.
Thank you.

The counterrotation is in the shoulders. If you look at a lutz, the takeoff on the outside edge causes the shoulders to rotate in the opposite direction of the air rotation on the takeoff. On a flip the shoulders rotate the same direction as air rotation through the takeoff, so the jump flows thorough smoothly as opposed to the wind up and release action of the lutz.

GiuliaPlum said:

I don't get it yet:no: ... the rotation of the edge. what edge is rotating? the one which hits the ice or the other one?

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Edges by their nature travel on curves (circles). Therefore they're always traveling either clockwise or counterclockwise, not in straight lines. Sometimes the circles are so big that the edges are shallow enough to look almost straight from a distance (this is true for many lutz and flip takeoffs), but to be a true edge it needs to be traveling on a curve, and as silver.blades mentions the skater controls the curve by rotating the shoulders.

Most skaters do their fast rotations, in the air during jumps and on the ice during spins, in a counterclockwise direction. A smaller percentage of skaters prefer to rotate clockwise. Just like most people are right handed and some are left handed. (But there isn't a one-to-one relation between handedness and rotational preference.)

It's easier to give examples for counterclockwise jumpers. Just imagine a mirror image of everything for clockwise skaters.

For counterclockwise jumpers, the landing of all standard jumps is on the right back outside edge, which travels counterclockwise, the same direction as the rotation in the air.

Most jumps also take off from edges that travel counterclockwise.

A salchow, for example, takes off from a left back inside edge that's clearly curvy on the ice. It doesn't use a toepick; instead, in the process of jumping off the ice on a salchow takeoff, the skater uses the free leg and the upper body to suddenly make the medium-sized curve on the ice become the tight curve of rotating around the center of the body in the air.

A flip takes off from left back inside edge that's usually almost straight but still traveling counterclockwise, with the shoulders already set to maintain a counterclockwise curve. When the skater vaults off the toepick, s/he also uses the upper body to change the big counterclockwise circle on the ice into the tight rotation in the air.

The takeoff from a lutz is from a left back outside edge, which travels clockwise. The shoulders will be twisted toward the right to maintain the blade on that clockwise-traveling back outside edge. The skater is going to rotate counterclockwise in the air, so s/he needs to change directions in the process of jumping up into the air. That change of direction is what makes a lutz so tricky. The toepick facilitates the change of direction; the skater also needs to reverse the twist in the upper body, and the timing of that reversal needs to be precisely coordinated with the toepick action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABcKI5MsOL8
Here's an example in which you can see that the skater goes into the first jumping pass, a triple lutz-double loop combination, on a deep left back outside edge that is clearly traveling on a clockwise circle. As soon as he vaults into the air, he switches direction and immediately begins rotating counterclockwise. The landing of the lutz and the takeoff, rotation, and landing of the loop continue in the counterclockwise direction.

The lutz and the dreaded pre-rotated takeoff

The biggest issue with a lutz is that nearly everyone wants to lead with their upper body, which causes them to switch edges and go on an inside edge. Pre-rotation is a huge factor and is cured by a commitment to change and get a good draw.

ohhh I got it! I had the illumination after 20 minutes of hard thought. It was so simple, actually!! Thank you so much!

a very good example of lutz jump : you can see the outside edge is still an outside edge at the time she is about to fly into the air
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm76DPhYf14

Well it's because it's on an outside edge. duh.

That doesn't answer the question. Loops and toe loops take off from outside edges also, but they are easier than flips.

You probably have already had several replies on this but in a short answer it's because the Lutz involves a change of edge. It can be turned into looking like a Flip when one fails to do the take off properly. A Flip is usually done from a basic three turn.

I never loop and toe loops come from an outside edge. i guess its because the long change. o.o

Dipyramidal said:

I never loop and toe loops come from an outside edge. i guess its because the long change. o.o

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long change...? :scratch:

GiuliaPlum said:

long change...? :scratch:

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idk sorry.

Toe loops come from a three turn, Flips come from a rocker (or mohawk). Three turns generate more turning movement into the jump to "pre-rotate" into the actual take-off.

I agree, most use their shoulders to pre-rotate into their lutz jumps to create the change into a flip take-off instead.

So for Alissa Czisny is the lutz easier than the flip? This would explain why she adds a double-toe to her Lutz, while the others don't.

Toe loops come from a three turn, Flips come from a rocker (or mohawk). Three turns generate more turning movement into the jump to "pre-rotate" into the actual take-off.

I agree, most use their shoulders to pre-rotate into their lutz jumps to create the change into a flip take-off instead.

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is this legal according to ISU rules?

The rules only specify the edge on the ice. What the skater does with the rest of the body to achieve the correct edge (or the correct amount of rotation in the air) is not specified. But some techniques do work better than others.

gkelly said:

That doesn't answer the question. Loops and toe loops take off from outside edges also, but they are easier than flips.

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That's because they take off of the outside edge of the landing foot, this means that the edge travels counterclockwise (if that's the way you jump) meaning that there is no reverse rotation. Loops are generaly easier because they jump stright up and down, there is no transfer of weight. I can't understand why a toe loop is considered to be easier than a flip personally, because I find the flip easier than the toe.

Toe loops come from a three turn, Flips come from a rocker (or mohawk). Three turns generate more turning movement into the jump to "pre-rotate" into the actual take-off.

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I've never seen a flip set up from a rocker. It's normally a 3-turn set up, although I suppose that you could set up from a rocker, but it would be difficult, and the same could be said for a toe loop, so that dosn't have anything to do with the difficulty of the jump.

When done properly, the lutz requires a long step up edge, that does not have a turn directly preceeding it. This requires a change in the timing of a skater, which in most other jumps it is skate, turn jump. Even the loop, which often time is done without the turns going into is can be controlled. The lutz you pretty much enter into blindly, and you have to get the timing just right. I think the lutz also requires more strength than the flip becuase, as previously mentioned, if you are on the correct outside edge, you are skating opposed to the direction of roatation which pretty much mean you need more height, more power and better timing to snap over on the right side and finish the roations in time.

I presume we all know that it is a counter rotation jump and the only active one in current ISU rules. One can do a Wally and lean as in a flip but one turns as if they were in a loop jump, Extremely difficult with triples or even doubles. No point in using it in CoP judging I think they count it as a loop jump, but not sure. The toe wally is somewhat easier.

Back to Lutz, and a very problematic jump it is. One has to lean in the direction one is going to rotate with. Toe off while still in that lean and jump. It sounds easy and it is for skaters who love to lutz, but difficult for others who want to turn in a more normal direction.

Some skaters who rock over to a back inside edge will claim that they still have the lutz lean. I don't believe that because any change of edge, and a Flutz is a change of edge, ones body changes with the new edge. Basic figure skating!

As to accepting the lutz as a minor error, it makes it easier to turn on the edge that you rocked over. I do believe that the air rotations in true lutz, are more difficult than they are in a comfortable preferred edge.