Pairs fs

[oleada]

The vast majority of these Jr. pairs won't have a prayer in Sr. ranks. Among the top ranked Junior pairs, not a whole lot have even attempted triple jumps, 2flip, 2lutz, even 2t+2t, ...some have done throw doubles year over year. Most of them will probably vanish one or two years or so.

Didn't you say this last year?

Iliushechkina & Maisuradze already were 3rd at Russian Nationals, 5th at Europeans and 4th at Cup of Russia. I think that's pretty damn good for a team who hasn't even been fully in the senior ranks. They've landed the 3T several times. Sure, Lubov's jumps are a weakness but I'm sure their coach (who clearly is doing something right if her two teams are 1-2 at JW, and she also coached Totmianina/Marinin for a long time) will work on that. Maisuradze hasn't missed a jump all season, if I remember correctly.

Martiusheva is 13 and this is her first year of international competition, ever. They need to add tougher elements, but they are already quite good.

Pairs is a discipline in which immediate success is very rare. Very few pairs have immediate success from Juniors to Seniors - hell, most even don't stay together. I'm sure that these teams know that and they and their coaches are more looking forward to 2014.

[gold12345]

The vast majority of these Jr. pairs won't have a prayer in Sr. ranks. Among the top ranked Junior pairs, not a whole lot have even attempted triple jumps, 2flip, 2lutz, even 2t+2t, ...some have done throw doubles year over year. Most of them will probably vanish one or two years or so.

Considering most of the top pairs nowadays have a girl in her early to mid 20's and a guy in his mid to late 20's, I don't think it's overly alarming that the Junior pairs aren't doing the most difficult elements yet. They still have plenty of time and can continue to improve (if they stay together). Yes, many will vanish, but that's typical. There are plenty of pair teams skating at the senior level who are still very wonky on the throw triples and don't really have the SBS triples. No, they won't challenge for medals at major events, but they can still compete as Seniors, especially if they are from countries that are not rich in pair skaters.

These pair skaters at Junior Worlds are all teenagers and barely into their 20s. I wouldn't really expect many of them to be ready for Seniors just yet.

[chuckm]

I would have put the Canadians in second and the Americans in third. Happy both teams did better than expected.

I agree with Doris that L/S (the Canadians) were overscored. Their FS was as exciting as paint drying, and there were no unusual moves or outstanding features. Their twist throw was crashy and they both fell on the throw jump. C/S were cleaner, with some wow lifts and interesting transition moves.

That Japanese Team should have been better. Unfortunately, the lady is a weak skater while the gentleman is a good Pairs partner. I hope he finds another in that array of good Japanese Ladies back home.

There isn't much interest on the part of Japanese ladies to go into Pairs skating. And Tran is Canadian, so Japan isn't exactly 'home'.

[Fashionista]

wow, S/K pretty much skated perfectly.. just a slight lean forward on the second throw.

How come that pair which skated perfectly took only the 5th place? Behind Canadians and American who fell down???

[oleada]

I think they had lower levels in the elements. I really thought they'd score closer to what Casteli/Shnapir scored.

IMO, they should have been third or fourth, certainly ahead of Lawrence & Swiegers.

[Fashionista]

[QUOTE=oleada;374699]I think they had lower levels in the elements./QUOTE]
Yes, and it's turned out they have only double jumps.

[oleada]

Yeah, but so did the Canadians and the Americans.

[COP]

Considering most of the top pairs nowadays have a girl in her early to mid 20's and a guy in his mid to late 20's, I don't think it's overly alarming that the Junior pairs aren't doing the most difficult elements yet. They still have plenty of time and can continue to improve (if they stay together). .

I kind of disagree. Girls need to master triple jumps in quite young age otherwise they'll never land a triple jump consistently. The vast majority of these 'top' ranked Jr. pairs are using a strategy of maximizing levels of non-jump elements to be competitive. They generally do well at Jr. level but will have no chance at all at Sr. level. It's unthinkable for international judges to pass out high PCS if a Sr. pair team is still doing 2flip/2lutz solo jumps. That's why it's very slow to see change of guards at Sr. ranks but we keep on seeing one 'promising' Jr. pair after another going through the revolving door every 6 months. Most of them simply vanished...

That's why I tend to believe Jr. pair with relatively hard elements will have a better future. I'm excited about the American national pairs' silver medalists. The girl is very young but they have every mastered very hard elements with consistency.

[oleada]

I kind of disagree. Girls need to master triple jumps in quite young age otherwise they'll never land a triple jump consistently. The vast majority of these 'top' ranked Jr. pairs are using a strategy of maximizing levels of non-jump elements to be competitive. They generally do well at Jr. level but will have no chance at all at Sr. level. It's unthinkable for international judges to pass out high PCS if a Sr. pair team is still doing 2flip/2lutz solo jumps. That's why it's very slow to see change of guards at Sr. ranks but we keep on seeing one 'promising' Jr. pair after another going through the revolving door every 6 months. Most of them simply vanished..

Uh, the pairs HAD to do a 2lz in the SP. It's a requirement. And many teams attempted triple jumps - Iliushechkina/Maisuradze, Zhang/Wang, Cheng/Gao, Sergejeva/Glebov with varying degrees of success. Most had double axels. To be a top pairs team you need both high level non-jump elements and the big tricks. Which part of "these are still developing teams" are you not getting? You don't need to bring out all the stops to win this championship, not always.

Additionally, it's quite possible that these teams are practicing bigger elements that they have not yet included in their programs. One offseason is a a lot of time for young, developing team. Also, a lot of these teams haven't been together all that long - it takes a while for elements to gel together.

I didn't know you could see the future and tell which pairs are going to be successful or not. When Savchenko & Szolkowy came into the scene back in 2005, they only had a throw triple salchow and a throw double axel. By our standards, they never would have made it. Now they are world champions - time and maturity are needed for a pairs team to come together.

That's why I tend to believe Jr. pair with relatively hard elements will have a better future. I'm excited about the American national pairs' silver medalists. The girl is very young but they have every mastered very hard elements with consistency.

By your own standards, they don't even qualify, as they only have double jumps. Tanovich/Chau are a fantastic team, don't get me wrong, but they're also a LONG way from competing with the top senior teams - and their lack of height difference is a big issue.

[COP]

I didn't know you could see the future and tell which pairs are going to be successful or not. When Savchenko & Szolkowy came into the scene back in 2005, they only had a throw triple salchow and a throw double axel. By our standards, they never would have made it. Now they are world champions - time and maturity are needed for a pairs team to come together.

It's a completely different scenario. Savchenko had very hard elements with Morozov as Jr. skater long before she partnered with Szolkowy. It simply took more than one season for S&S to include other hard elements. Savchenoko has already been capable of landing triple jumps although she's not very consistent.
But for many Jr. girls at age of 14, 15, if they still don't try a 2a, triple jump, the chances of them doing a triple in the future will be diminishing rapidly.

By your own standards, they don't even qualify, as they only have double jumps. Tanovich/Chau are a fantastic team, don't get me wrong, but they're also a LONG way from competing with the top senior teams - and their lack of height difference is a big issue.

I was not referring to Tanovich/Chau, I was referring to the Sr. pairs silver medalists. The girl is very young, but she can land th3loop/th3flip, sbs 3t, 2a, 3twist very consistently. That's why they could get a huge score(110+ in free) for their international debut at 4cc with PCS shooting up sharply (compared to SP)almost overnight!

[oleada]

Oh, I see you meant the senior silver medalists. We were talking about Junior pairs, so for some reason I thought you meant Tanovich & Chau. Still, Denney & Barrett are exciting, but they lack a lot of the polish and speed and their elements aren't always high quality. They had also skated together before. Teams that have immediate success like them are the exception, not the rule.

Except that many of the teams in here ARE TRYING ALL THESE ELEMENTS! They are juniors. They are not always consistent. That is the name of the game. As they grow older, they will become more consistent and improve the quality of their elements. Pairs like Shen/Zhao and Pang & Tong took a long time to finally hit that next level of quality, for example.

Iliushechkina/Maisuradze: they have a 3T, 2A, throw 3flip and 3loop. They did the 3Twist last season, so they can do it. Surely, their execution needs to be cleaned up, but they've had an incredibly successful season.

Martiusheva/Rogonov: 2A, Th3S, Th3Lo, 3Twist. Many senior teams who've been around for ages have similar content.

Zhang/Wang: 3T and 3S, throw 3S, throw 3Lo. Sure, they had a rough skate here, but they had decent results in senior competition.

Lawrence/Swiegers: I believe they did a 3T at Canadians. They have a throw lutz and loop and a triple twist.

Sheremetieva & Kuznetsov: throw triple flip and loop (and can do the salchow + toe as well). But they've been incredibly unlucky with injury and haven't been able to up their jump content.

and so on. Look at the protocols, a lot of difficult content was being attempted. Most teams had two double throws, double axels, some attempted triples unsuccesfully. Most senior pairs are hardly ever clean, and you're expecting the Juniors to be? They are young and trying difficult things and it doesn't always work. Your argument is quite ridiculous.

[COP]

Oh, I see you meant the senior silver medalists. We were talking about Junior pairs, so for some reason I thought you meant Tanovich & Chau. Still, Denney & Barrett are exciting, but they lack a lot of the polish and speed and their elements aren't always high quality. They had also skated together before. Teams that have immediate success like them are the exception, not the rule.

and so on. Look at the protocols, a lot of difficult content was being attempted. Most teams had two double throws, double axels, some attempted triples unsuccesfully. Most senior pairs are hardly ever clean, and you're expecting the Juniors to be? They are young and trying difficult things and it doesn't always work. Your argument is quite ridiculous.

But Denney is only 15 years old!

I only glanced over the protocol sheet, I may be wrong, but it seems to me most of the top 10 only attempted some double solo jumps. Even 2A was a rarity.

I believe the wining Russian pair used to have reliable 3t and 2A(again I might be wrong). Are they regressing these days? Another Russian team tried 3loop solo jump before? but nothing to see here.

[gold12345]

I was not referring to Tanovich/Chau, I was referring to the Sr. pairs silver medalists. The girl is very young, but she can land th3loop/th3flip, sbs 3t, 2a, 3twist very consistently. That's why they could get a huge score(110+ in free) for their international debut at 4cc with PCS shooting up sharply (compared to SP)almost overnight!

D/B got a 108 for a pretty clean skate, which is nothing to write home about really. They have plenty they need to work on. It is extremely rare for very young pair skaters to immediately rise to the top of the Sr standings. It is much different than Ladies skating, where teenage champions are considered normal and you need to master all the triples before puberty sets in.

It's a completely different scenario. Savchenko had very hard elements with Morozov as Jr. skater long before she partnered with Szolkowy. It simply took more than one season for S&S to include other hard elements. Savchenoko has already been capable of landing triple jumps although she's not very consistent.
But for many Jr. girls at age of 14, 15, if they still don't try a 2a, triple jump, the chances of them doing a triple in the future will be diminishing rapidly.

Just because the toughest elements may not be inserted into their programs for Jr level competition, it does not necessarily mean that these Jr pairs are not attempting these elements in practice. You could absolutely be right that none of these teams do well in the Senior rankings, but to write off some of the younger teams, especially, may not be wise. There's plenty of time for them to improve and get the triple throws/jumps they need.

[dorispulaski]

I think they had lower levels in the elements. I really thought they'd score closer to what Casteli/Shnapir scored.

IMO, they should have been third or fourth, certainly ahead of Lawrence & Swiegers.

They did. They had a lower base score than C/S. They only did a double twist, and both their pair spin and SBS spin were only level 2. AFAIR, they had great speed in the SBS spin, so it's a mystery why they did not go for the higher level there.

[Joesitz]

My last word on this:

Illiurschenkina/Maizeradze(sp) were so tiresome in the LP after such a very nice SP. How can anyone praise that skate? Maybe they should have been 4th.