Skating and Gymnastics

I caught the America (American?) Cup this weekend and was struck by how different the judging changes in gymnastics and figure skating have affected each sport.

In gymnastics, the judging got way harsher and much more critical - demanding more and more but the athletes seem to keep up with the higher technical difficulty with much more ease than skating.

For example, in gymnastics a slight balance check can now knock you out of contention and the athlete response is to not have that check. They seem have made the switch without a lot of pain (injuries aside...)

Skating on the other hand seems to have lost its inherent "ohh... ahhh" factor that would result with a clean program. Skaters are doing more difficult tricks but the overall skating seems lacking.

Why is that? Does anyone have any insight or can direct me to an old post thread that can clarify this for me? I've been a skating fan for longer than a lady should be forced to admit in public, but I simply cannot "get" this current crop of skaters nor the hard core fans ability to sweep aside glaring lack of perfection on ice.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

I do not have an answer to the question, but off topic, for some reason it is vaguely depressing to me that the American Cup champion and apparently best gymnast in the country is 13 (Jordyn Wiever of Lansing, Michigan), while Shawn Johnson is over the hill at 17.

Mathman said:

I do not have an answer to the question, but off topic, for some reason it is vaguely depressing to me that the American Cup champion and apparently best gymnast in the country is 13 (Jordyn Wiever of Lansing, Michigan), while Shawn Johnson is over the hill at 17.

Click to expand...

I'm not so sure Jordyn would have won if it wasn't SCAM cup.... (see the name) There's a reason why lots of top international gymnasts refuse to go to the American Cup....

The US judges gave Shawn huge scores, but she got a rude awakening at the Olympics. Reports were the head of the FIG was really unhappy with the state of gymnastics and told the judgse that they better start deducting for things like lack of artistry. And that's why Nastia won, and why Yang Yilin almost got silver.

So I'm not sure if at a more reputable competition like Worlds for example that someone like Bridget wouldn't come out on top over someone like Jordyn.

I mean remember the Olympic AA champ is 19, and Khorkina was pretty dominant for a long time too. It's not necessarily the case that gymnasts are their best at 14/15.

Mathman said:

I do not have an answer to the question, but off topic, for some reason it is vaguely depressing to me that the American Cup champion and apparently best gymnast in the country is 13 (Jordyn Wiever of Lansing, Michigan), while Shawn Johnson is over the hill at 17.

Click to expand...

I think with girls' skating and girls' gymnastics timing is most important now. It's best to choose the most talented girls who will be exactly age-eligible for Olympics at the Olympics or that season before the Olympic season - and train them really hard. The probablity that they will be in the small time window where they had already a growth spurt, but haven't filled out yet is the highest then. Sarah Hughes hit that time window at the 2002 Olympics, Meissner was in that time window when she became World Champion - and well, I think in Gymnastics they are already planning it that way.

Zhang just might be in that time window next season, she has grown a lot over the last year. She has the summer to use that to her advantage, get a bit faster over the ice, get a bit more power. I doubt she will start to fill out before the Olympics, I know lots of girls, who weren't child athletes, that were very skinny for two years after their growth spurt. Zhang, Nagasu, Flatt are all three perfectly timed (in contrast to Asada, e.g. - who was responsible for that? She will be 19 at her first Olympics!).

The Russians plan for Sochi is quite good too, the two girls who won senior nationals will already be 17 though by the time Sochi comes around. And they often have a body type that starts to fill out earlier (what Mishin said back in the days about Russian women). We'll have to see. Maybe they hide some really talented 10 and 11-year-olds somewhere.

It's not necessarily the case that gymnasts are their best at 14/15.

Click to expand...

Not absolutely, no. But it defininitely helps. The three Olympic ladies champions in Figure Skating before Arakawa were 16, 15 and 16. Go figure.

IIRC Gymnastics had its growing pains a few years ago with the new system and from what I understand it's still not well accepted by fans or the media (or past champions)... skating is a couple of years behind them because IIRC when it was being talked about in 02 Gymnastics was cited as a 'failure' with its change...

Give it time, give it time....

Medusa said:

I think with girls' skating and girls' gymnastics timing is most important now. It's best to choose the most talented girls who will be exactly age-eligible for Olympics at the Olympics or that season before the Olympic season -...

Click to expand...

That is one reason why I wish skating especially could find a way to separate itself from the "Olympic sport" designation. Why is a it a grander accomplishment to be the best in the world in your sport in 2010 rather than in 2009 or 2011 or 2012?

Ganted, in 2011 there will be no parading with flags or Elvis Presley impersonators parachuting in to liven up the procedings.

Kwanford Wife said:

I caught the America (American?) Cup this weekend and was struck by how different the judging changes in gymnastics and figure skating have affected each sport.

In gymnastics, the judging got way harsher and much more critical - demanding more and more but the athletes seem to keep up with the higher technical difficulty with much more ease than skating.

For example, in gymnastics a slight balance check can now knock you out of contention and the athlete response is to not have that check. They seem have made the switch without a lot of pain (injuries aside...)

Click to expand...

I actually thought that gymnastics competition had an abnormal number of falls. Many gymnasts fell multiple times, and the quality of the meet seemed a little low. None of the gymnasts had even remotely pleasing choreography, and a lot of their technique was on the uglier side.

I think skating is in a much better shape their gymnastics right now. I feel like the new scoring system has taken a lot of the competitiveness out of gymnastics competitions. As long as you can generate a super high start value to separate yourself from the pack, it doesn't matter so much if you perform poorly. The US and China run away with almost every gymnastics competition, and everyone else trails so far behind because their start values are so much lower.

In skating, on the other hand, I feel like the sport is more competitive in all disciplines than it used to be. Competitions are suspenseful, and there are usually several contenders for medals. I'm a huge fan of both skating and gymnastics,but at this point in time, I find a skating competition far more intriguing than a gymnastics competition.

well, Shawn Johnson got deduction for lacking of artistry, but Nastia Liukin got no deduction for her very ugly technique (there were so many, and some require mandatory deductions but the judges turned blind eye on them). That's basically how Nastia Liukin won, simply put, she won by style, and style over substance!

bekalc said:

I'm not so sure Jordyn would have won if it wasn't SCAM cup.... (see the name) There's a reason why lots of top international gymnasts refuse to go to the American Cup....

The US judges gave Shawn huge scores, but she got a rude awakening at the Olympics. Reports were the head of the FIG was really unhappy with the state of gymnastics and told the judgse that they better start deducting for things like lack of artistry. And that's why Nastia won, and why Yang Yilin almost got silver.

So I'm not sure if at a more reputable competition like Worlds for example that someone like Bridget wouldn't come out on top over someone like Jordyn.

I mean remember the Olympic AA champ is 19, and Khorkina was pretty dominant for a long time too. It's not necessarily the case that gymnasts are their best at 14/15.

Click to expand...

Mathman said:

That is one reason why I wish skating especially could find a way to separate itself from the "Olympic sport" designation. Why is a it a grander accomplishment to be the best in the world in your sport in 2010 rather than in 2009 or 2011 or 2012?

Ganted, in 2011 there will be no parading with flags or Elvis Presley impersonators parachuting in to liven up the procedings.

Click to expand...

I suppose it's all psychological. The O word is far more universal.

In related news, I saw Alicia Sacramone (aka the "girl who fell twice at the olympics in the team competition") today at an NCAA meet. She wasn't competing, but boy did she look fabulous

ANW said:

well, Shawn Johnson got deduction for lacking of artistry, but Nastia Liukin got no deduction for her very ugly technique (there were so many, and some require mandatory deductions but the judges turned blind eye on them). That's basically how Nastia Liukin won, simply put, she won by style, and style over substance!

Click to expand...

I don't dispute the results of the Olympic all-around. However, Shawn did not get deducted for a lack of artistry. Yes, there is a deduction value written in the COP,but the judges ALMOST NEVER enforce them. Lord knows, if they did, plenty of gymnasts will be hammered away on that, let alone form/technique issues.

Nastia won because she had a better night. She produced many stuck landings and she scored as high as she could on her best events. Shawn lost ground on bars alone. IIRC, Shawn a pretty big form break on her standing full. Had she been perfect on beam alone, the scores between Nasia and Shawn would have been closer.

Shawn has better form than Nastia no doubt but Nastia didn't just win because of style. Does Nastia have form issues? Yes. Does she get deducted on all of them? No. Why? Because, it depends on the angle that the judges are watching the routines.

Did Nastia get a gift? Yes, on floor because her execution was definitely not around the 9.500 range but it was given to her. Did Shawn get a gift? Yes on vault, because she certainly did not rotate 2.5 rotations but Nelli Kim allowed it to pass.