Free Dance

dancemaster · Mar 3, 2009

samba said:
Are you saying that it made Igor's camp a full house? Just having Igor standing at the board with the team?

Just wanted to add my two cent.!!!!!!
First i am nor a big fan of H/H but find it amusing that some people are compareing C/Z and H/H,
From the many competition i have been able to see this two team compete( live).
To me they can not be compared H/H in technique are in a different league.
C/Z programs are novices compared with H/H..
OK on the day C/Z beat H/H but the truth be said.This had very little to do with Skating....
How did C/Z get such a big score for CD.when others did a better job.
that put allot of pressure on the team below( including H/H )
How did C/Z get nearly 4 point above the second placed team in the O./D..that was a joke..(can you imagine the kind of pressure that put on H/H and others..
its understandable that Igor wanted a good buffer zone going into the FD ,because there was a chance that the USA judge would not make the panel..well i could go on( and tell a few inside secrets) but there is really no point...
Igor with the help of the USFS and a few others, was able to place his team first and at the same time destroy next year opposition in one single blow
H/H dint have a good competition but they didn't deserve being kicked in the gut by their own country man

dorispulaski · Mar 3, 2009

dancemaster, the most shocking thing about the dance competition here to me was the scores of R&G in the CD. Not only were the scores very peculiar on the protocols - one judge who hated everything they did and gave -1 for every technical item, similar to what the Bulgarian judge did at Madrid JGP (so wrong!). The overall timing score was also very low for them compared to their skating skills score, and compared difference between skating skills and timing for the other teams.

IN has completely unreliable sound synchronization for Jr Worlds, so it is impossible to tell whether they actually had any timing problems or not, or if there was any justification for them scoring so low...7th, I think.

Do you have any insight as to whether anything happened on the ice to explain their scores in the CD?

Tammi · Mar 3, 2009

samba said:
Are you saying that it made Igor's camp a full house? Just having Igor standing at the board with the team?

I'm saying that it didn't hurt

.

samba · Mar 3, 2009

Tammi said:
I'm saying that it didn't hurt .

Well, actually I partially agree with you but can't say out loud :laugh:

. Nothing new in ice Dance world, sigh.

Tammi · Mar 3, 2009

samba, your secret is safe with me :laugh:

.

samba · Mar 3, 2009

dancemaster said:
Just wanted to add my two cent.!!!!!!
First i am nor a big fan of H/H but find it amusing that some people are compareing C/Z and H/H,
From the many competition i have been able to see this two team compete( live).
To me they can not be compared H/H in technique are in a different league.
C/Z programs are novices compared with H/H..
OK on the day C/Z beat H/H but the truth be said.This had very little to do with Skating....
How did C/Z get such a big score for CD.when others did a better job.
that put allot of pressure on the team below( including H/H )
How did C/Z get nearly 4 point above the second placed team in the O./D..that was a joke..(can you imagine the kind of pressure that put on H/H and others..
its understandable that Igor wanted a good buffer zone going into the FD ,because there was a chance that the USA judge would not make the panel..well i could go on( and tell a few inside secrets) but there is really no point...
Igor with the help of the USFS and a few others, was able to place his team first and at the same time destroy next year opposition in one single blow
H/H dint have a good competition but they didn't deserve being kicked in the gut by their own country man

Well, I heard something similar to your post as well. Thanks for sharing the info. It's pretty sad for the skaters who are not Igor's students. Nothing's new in Ice Dance...conspiracy, politics, corrupted CoP/PCS....etc., sigh...

Big Momma · Mar 3, 2009

Tammi said:
Yup, definitely lots of different factors and even things that have nothing to do with physical (i.e. the politics of the coach standing with them on the boards). Having all the right combinations certainly gives a team the edge. I'm really glad to see many different looks out there and not a cookie cutter mold.

Another thing that never hurts...having your parents take the judges out for dinner!

Joesitz (RIP) · Mar 4, 2009

For placing in a Broadway Show

C/Z - Gobs of selling material

S/S - Sooo cute

R/G - So original and clever

For Symphony Hall

H/H - for the serious lover of Dance.

conga · Mar 6, 2009

Tammi said:
CoP is requiring more athletic requirements for dancers and that pretty much translates to having a bigger boy/smaller girl team. Because Maia is so much smaller, Alex Shibutani is able to perform a one armed rotational lift on one leg. The lift is easily a level 4 and he does it so well they get positive GOE's. I'm just pointing this example out because I think that the judges prefer this style as opposed to the girl being able to hold up the guy.

I hope that you are dead wrong on the judges preference. I doubt I will ever enjoy watching teams that look so mismatched no matter how wonderful they skate or how well they perform lifts that they should be able to do well because of their size differential. You would never see that kind of size discrepancy in real ballroom or within a dance troupe. Now when the Hubbells do some of their moves, that's when I'm impressed.

Tammi · Mar 6, 2009

conga said:
I hope that you are dead wrong on the judges preference. I doubt I will ever enjoy watching teams that look so mismatched no matter how wonderful they skate or how well they perform lifts that they should be able to do well because of their size differential. You would never see that kind of size discrepancy in real ballroom or within a dance troupe. Now when the Hubbells do some of their moves, that's when I'm impressed.

Alot of people have talked about the mismatched size of the Shibutani's, but the judges don't seem to be bothered by it as much as they maybe used to be. I think it's probably more noticeable in the compulsory, but there's been so much talk about doing away with those, that dance seems to be changing more than pairs or singles. Time will tell.

Joesitz (RIP) · Mar 6, 2009

Technically, size should not matter, but it can affect the scores subjectively, if the judge doesn't care for the ideal size match.

In Pairs, too, it shouldn't matter but with a big guy throwing around a lady who comes up to his rib cage, high twists should not be judged on height in the air. Pairs skating is becoming more like basket ball where size definitely matters.

lcd · Mar 6, 2009

While the size "mismatch" (as it is being referred to here) of the Shibutanis does make for more challenging adjustments to their positioning in the traditional (ballroom) dance "holds" and at the same time logically provides them with the opportunity to take advantage of mechanical advantages when crafting lifts, at the end of the day I think what has helped drive their success (and to an extend help judges see past the immediate "size difference" issue) is the fact that all of their elements are so strong overall. A look at the TES marks indicates how strong their execution of the elements was at Junior Worlds, and the PCS marks suggests that some judges remain more reserved or still need to be "convinced" (code for "no reputation yet").

While the Shibutanis compulsory dance holds are not ideal because of their height difference, I think it is absolutely clear that they have very precise edges and technique, skate very large (relative to their size) and consistent patterns (see review on ice-dance.com that described their pattern as actually bigger than C/Z at US Nationals, which obviously implies greater speed) and have a consistently strong sense for timing (which is one of the more heavily weighted component scores in compulsories). And while the one-arm/one foot lift they had done so well with this year is one that they are suitably "designed" to perform, can anyone deny that their execution of this lift has been strong or that it takes balance, timing, strength on both their parts? Beyond the lifts, I think that overall, their elements are first rate - twizzles are fast in both directions (Eurosport commentator former British champion cites this), spins are fast/well centered (compare to spins done by many seniors this season), footwork sequences have great unison (straight line that opens their OD). Yes, a discussion of size DOES matter in ice dance. I GET that. But I think there are many other dimensions to consider.

With compulsories, the more traditional look and natural holds do play to the strengths of more traditionally "sized" teams, but I think this is more of a factor in some dances than others. The Hubbells sizing for instance look absolutely lovely in a waltz, where long leg lines and extensions (theirs are superb) play to many of their physical advantages.

I also love the creativity that the Hubbells have always used to address their relative size issues, especially in lifts and connecting moves. I love how they create hydroblad moves and lifts which are aesthetically pleasing and unique but allow Madison's strength to help create the image. It is not quite the same for me when the Italian senior team does role reversal lifts - girl lifts boy. Somehow the design seems to emasculate the "boy" and oddly do the reverse for the "girl" With the Hubbells, IMO their lifts are very difficult and creative explorations of how two strong and very flexible bodies can move through space. If they could figure out how to get the torque amped up during their spins, then I think their wonderful form and positions (Kiefer's spiral/camel is IMO the best amongst the men world wide) will be better rewarded from a GOE standpoint. It is unfortunate for them that they had problems with two of their moves during the free dance at Junior Worlds though.

conga · Mar 6, 2009

Technically said:
appreciate[/I] a one leg rotational lift, but still have more of a ho hum attitude when I know that these types of lifts are much, much easier when you are working with a small partner. My view of the difficulty, then, is not really subjective because it is based on fact. hwell:

I have never been fond of the grown man skating with a miniature person/child or doll look of some of the pair teams but aesthetics are even more important in dance. As I said, this discrepancy is not happening in "real" dance that I have observed and I hope it never does.

Another thought: maybe it's time to raise the height of the baskets in basketball (and the net in tennis)? The players from years back were actually better weren't they? I mean, they were shorter and the basket was further away. No easy slam dunking for those guys

Joesitz (RIP) · Mar 6, 2009

^^^
Excellent post. My calling size matches as subjective was more for the appearance of the teams. Not the technicality of the holds and throws. If a team puts a judge in a happy mood, it will show in his scores. It's all so sublime.

icedancexpert · Mar 10, 2009

Big Momma said:
Another thing that never hurts...having your parents take the judges out for dinner!

What!?! That's ridiculous! And may I also add,...CORRUPT!!!

:scratch:
I hope you're just joking, or guessing....

Big Momma · Mar 11, 2009

icedancexpert said:
What!?! That's ridiculous! And may I also add,...CORRUPT!!! :scratch:
I hope you're just joking, or guessing....

Sadly no, I'm not joking and I'm not guessing.

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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

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samba

Tammi

samba

Big Momma

Joesitz (RIP)

conga

Tammi

Joesitz (RIP)

lcd

Match Penalty

conga

Joesitz (RIP)

icedancexpert

Big Momma

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