Free Dance

The Hubbells are through because they missed the podium by 46 hundredths of a point?

Mathman said:

The Hubbells are through because they missed the podium by 46 hundredths of a point?

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Indeed! My take on Dance judging has to do with 'look for errors'. all top Senior Dance couples have everything they need: edges, stroking, leans, etc. The judges, imo, wait for the mistakes to knock them out of contention. What happens in the future is not that a team was tenths of a point from podiuming but lost out completely at a lower level. That's what will be remembered by the judges. I believe they will not be taken seriously in the future. JMO.

Chukum: I'm only complaining about US Seniors in Juniors.

Joesitz said:

Indeed! My take on Dance judging has to do with 'look for errors'. all top Senior Dance couples have everything they need: edges, stroking, leans, etc. The judges, imo, wait for the mistakes to knock them out of contention. What happens in the future is not that a team was tenths of a point from podiuming but lost out completely at a lower level. That's what will be remembered by the judges. I believe they will not be taken seriously in the future. JMO.

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You do realize that after the high and low scores are thrown out and the random selection is done, the scores of only 5 of the 9 judges count. So when you consider the fact that the Hubbells lost a medal by less than half a point, that difference is not significant. The outcome could have gone quite another way with a different random selection.

I just feel so horrible for the Hubbells. I think they deserved at least Bronze. They were undermarked badly on PCS. I guess the judges tried to give room for the Russians to prevent the US sweep.

I'm sure C/Z will move up senior. For sure, US will give B/A, D/W and S/B two assignments each. If C/Z do GP, they will most likely get two as well?? Will the Hubbells and N/B each get one assignments or two?? How many teams US can send to GP?

samba said:

I'm sure C/Z will move up senior. For sure, US will give B/A, D/W and S/B two assignments each. If C/Z do GP, they will most likely get two as well?? Will the Hubbells and N/B each get one assignments or two?? How many teams US can send to GP?

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If the country is hosting the GP event, then they can choose one additional skater to send, otherwise, there is a list of criteria through the ISU that needs to be met. First, there are the "seeded" skaters. These are the ones who finished 1-6 at the most recent Worlds event. Then there are "invited" skaters. These are the ones who finished 7-12 at the most recent Worlds event. Both "seeded" and "invited" skaters are given 2 GP events.

Also under the criteria for "invited" skaters, are skaters who medalled at Junior Worlds and the Junior GP Final. That counts for 1 selection each, so I believe that would mean C/Z would qualify for 2 selections.

Beyond that, there's all kinds of mathematic equations to figure out who would qualify for an assignment (i.e. world rankings, personal bests, etc.)

So, unlike the JGP where a country is assigned a number of spots and they can select whichever skaters they want to send, the ISU selects a majority of the GP skaters based on qualifications.

Tammi said:

If the country is hosting the GP event, then they can choose one additional skater to send, otherwise, there is a list of criteria through the ISU that needs to be met. First, there are the "seeded" skaters. These are the ones who finished 1-6 at the most recent Worlds event. Then there are "invited" skaters. These are the ones who finished 7-12 at the most recent Worlds event. Both "seeded" and "invited" skaters are given 2 GP events.

Also under the criteria for "invited" skaters, are skaters who medalled at Junior Worlds and the Junior GP Final. That counts for 1 selection each, so I believe that would mean C/Z would qualify for 2 selections.

Beyond that, there's all kinds of mathematic equations to figure out who would qualify for an assignment (i.e. world rankings, personal bests, etc.)

So, unlike the JGP where a country is assigned a number of spots and they can select whichever skaters they want to send, the ISU selects a majority of the GP skaters based on qualifications.

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Thanks Tammi. This means if all US top three at Worlds placed top 12, they will have two assignments each. C/Z will get two based upon her JGF and Jr.Worlds wins. Hubbells and N/B will at least get one each based on their World ranks and it's possible that they may get two each if ISU invites them?? I've not seen any country got to send more than five teams at GP in ice dance, am I wrong?

Both the US and Russia sent 6 teams to the GP this past season:

US: B/A, D/W, S/B, N/B, W/B and Summersett/Gilles (host pick)

Russia: DomShabs, Khokhlova/Nov, Gorshkova/Butikov, Bobrova/Soloviev, Rubleva/Shefer (one initially, got a vacancy later), Platonova/Grachev (host pick)

Canada would have had 5 teams except that V/M had to withdraw; sent 4 teams: Crone/Poirier, Weaver/Poje, Hann-McCurdy/Coreno, Chong/Gfeller (host pick).

France sent 4 teams: Delshoes, P/B, Carron/Jost and Blanc/Bouquet.

China sent 3 teams (two were host picks), as did Italy.

All other countries participating sent one.


ISU invited skater criteria:

Top 12 at Worlds - guaranteed 2 events
Top 24 on the ISU Ranking List - guaranteed 1 event
Top 24 on the Seasons Best List - guaranteed 1 event
Top 3 at JW - guaranteed 1 event
Top 3 at the JGPF - guaranteed 1 event

After all the 'guarantees' are fulfilled, the remaining skaters selected (except host picks) MUST be in the top 75 on the ISU SB List for Ladies, Men and Ice Dance. There are less than 75 Pairs, so all Pairs are theoretically eligible, although few are selected from the bottom of the list.

Each host country is allowed 3 entries and a 'host pick' does not have to meet the SB criteria.

US dance teams:

SB list top 24 (as of now, expect changes after Worlds):
2-Davis/White
6-Belbin/Agosto
10-Samuelson/Bates
13-Chock/Zuerlein
17-Hubbell/Hubbell
18-Shibutani/Shibutani
22-Gilles/Donohue

25-Navarro/Bommentre
26-Summersett/Gilles

ISU Ranking top 24 (expect changes after Worlds)
4-Belbin/Agosto
6-Davis/White
7-Samuelson/Bates
13-Hubbell/Hubbell
14-Navarro/Bommentre
17-Chock/Zuerlein

35-Shibutani/Shibutani
67-Gilles/Donohue
73-Summersett/Gilles

JW medalists:
Chock/Zuerlein
Shibutani/Shibutani

JGPF medalists:
Chock/Zuerlein
Hubbell/Hubbell

The USFS refers to Nationals ranking when submitting teams for GP invitations as well as assigning a host pick.
Davis / White- already guaranteed events (ISU Rank, SB list), should finish top Worlds top 12
Samuelson / Bates - already guaranteed events (ISU Rank, SB list), may finish Worlds top 12
Navarro/Bommentre- guaranteed at least one event (ISU Rank); might get 2
Hubbells - guaranteed (ISU Rank, SB list and JGPF medal)
Matthews / Gislason - No guarantees. He hasn't yet been released by Canada. If he is, could get host pick
Summersett / Gilles - No guarantees, could get host pick

Belbin/Agosto should get two events (SB list, ISU rank), will almost certainly finish top 12 at Worlds.

Chock/Zuerlein guaranteed events (SB list, ISU rank, JW medal, JGP medal)

Gilles/Donohue and the Shibutanis will probably remain Junior.

chuckm said:

ISU invited skater criteria:

Top 12 at Worlds - guaranteed 2 events
Top 24 on the ISU Ranking List - guaranteed 1 event
Top 24 on the Seasons Best List - guaranteed 1 event
Top 3 at JW - guaranteed 1 event
Top 3 at the JGPF - guaranteed 1 event

JW medalists:
Chock/Zuerlein
Shibutani/Shibutani

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Is Maia Shibutani old enough for them to get GP assignments? Or is she only too young for Worlds and Olys?

samba said:

I guess the judges tried to give room for the Russians to prevent the US sweep.

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ISU vs USA, vol. 2

Aren't you tired?

Buttercup said:

Is Maia Shibutani old enough for them to get GP assignments? Or is she only too young for Worlds and Olys?

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She turns 15 in July and is technically GP eligible (but not Worlds and Olympics), but IMO they will remain Juniors. They are so small that they wouldn't fare well against Senior competition. Look for a rivalry between the Shibutanis and Gilles/Donohue in the JGP next season, and at JW.

chuckm said:

She turns 15 in July and is technically GP eligible (but not Worlds and Olympics), but IMO they will remain Juniors. They are so small that they wouldn't fare well against Senior competition. Look for a rivalry between the Shibutanis and Gilles/Donohue in the JGP next season, and at JW.

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Don't forget the Hubbells, they still can do JW despite doing GP, am I right?

samba said:

Don't forget the Hubbells, they still can do JW despite doing GP, am I right?

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Yes, they technically could. But with the Olympics on the horizon, the three Nationals medalists will likely forgo the trip to Korea for 4CC, which means the teams placing 4th-6th will likely get 4CC assignments. I don't think the Hubbells would want to do the GP, Nationals, 4CC with a Senior FS and have to also practice a Junior FD for JW.

Thank you chuckm for the stats :thumbsup:. That was very helpful in making sense of it all.

I'm thinking that Chock/Zuerlein could be a dark horse for US Seniors this year. They're ending the season with a lot of momentum and things could get very interesting if they're well received on the senior circuit.

dorispulaski said:

Yes, but at US nationals all 3 Netchaeva senior teams had essentially the same footwork. Yes, the extension is lovely, but also after watching it 3 times in an hour, the eye (not to mention mind) gets a little jaded about it.

BTW, I was typing stream of consciousness while watching Jr worlds & doing PBP at the same time, not making a considered review.

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And you don't think Igor doesn't do the same thing? Meryl/Charile, Trina/Chris, Shibutanis, Madi/Greg; they all have essentially the same footworks as well. However, you only make the point of saying something about Netchaeva's teams? I understand it's difficult to give a thoughtful review when you're typing as you're watching; but be a little more fair with what you say.

I am just warning of your criticism. It goes for everything and everybody (including myself). I know skaters who read these message boards, and I guess just want to remind everyone be careful of what you say because they are aware.

Tammi said:

I'm thinking that Chock/Zuerlein could be a dark horse for US Seniors this year. They're ending the season with a lot of momentum and things could get very interesting if they're well received on the senior circuit.

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They might be better off waiting until after the Olympics. There are so many strong teams in ice dance right now trying to get Olympic medals, and the US already has three very good senior teams - two of which are serious medal contenders. This could really stand in C/Z's way of getting into the top ranks. After Vancouver, B/A will be gone and most likely other top teams will retire - seems to me like a better opportunity for a younger team to move up from juniors.

icedancer18 said:

And you don't think Igor doesn't do the same thing? Meryl/Charile, Trina/Chris, Shibutanis, Madi/Greg; they all have essentially the same footworks as well. However, you only make the point of saying something about Netchaeva's teams? I understand it's difficult to give a thoughtful review when you're typing as you're watching; but be a little more fair with what you say.

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I'm sure Shpilband reuses stuff, however, not so much using hand me downs between top pairs or between teams who are in the same competitions where the footwork will be seen back to back, and therefore will be noticeable. He does have the same team doing the same thing in the OD and FD, which is harder for a casual viewer (like me) to pick up.

Here, Shibutanis do not look like C&Z particularly, to me.

For example, when he reused the Phantom cuts he used several years ago for a different team, it takes a very observant person to notice. The trick is not to reuse something that is a highlight move. If you're doing something fairly ordinary, the eye of the casual viewer (like me) will not pick it up.

While typing while watching, I might say something like "ordinary footwork" or "generic straight line footwork", rather than, "This is the dead spit of Johnny and Susie's footwork."

icedancer18 said:

I am just warning of your criticism. It goes for everything and everybody (including myself). I know skaters who read these message boards, and I guess just want to remind everyone be careful of what you say because they are aware.

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Yes, but criticism of their programs is one of the few reasons that it would be useful for them to read these boards. Otherwise, no good can come of it, and I would not advise them to read figure skating boards at all.

I was once a TA. We got student evaluations. I always took most seriously the good things that people who disliked me said, and the bad things that people who overall liked me said. Skaters reading the boards should take our comments that way.

S&B and Hubbells have outstanding potential, and this is something they can avoid by going to an outside choreographer. And I recommend to them that they do it.

Also, reread what I wrote. I said the HH footwork was "well done".

Buttercup said:

They might be better off waiting until after the Olympics. There are so many strong teams in ice dance right now trying to get Olympic medals, and the US already has three very good senior teams - two of which are serious medal contenders. This could really stand in C/Z's way of getting into the top ranks. After Vancouver, B/A will be gone and most likely other top teams will retire - seems to me like a better opportunity for a younger team to move up from juniors.

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First of all, C/Z will certainly get 2 GP invitations next season, as they are top 24 on both ISU Ranking and SB lists and are the JGPF and JW champions. They will be skating Senior programs in the GP and as they are already the reigning Junior Champions, it makes no sense for them to remain Junior nationally.

Of the top skaters, the only sure retirees are B/A. Navarro / Bommentre might retire, especially if they are passed by the Hubbells and/or Matthews / Gislason next season. But D/W and Samuelson / Bates are both young and will be around through 2014 barring injury.

Most new Seniors don't make it onto the podium, even if they are very good, so it would be better for C/Z to have their first Senior Nationals next year and aim for that #3 spot in 2011. Their major competition will be the Hubbells, and they have beaten them consistently this year.

Since the Olympics-bound teams will very likely skip 4CC (in Korea), C/Z and the Hubbells have a chance to get assigned to 4CC next season. That's even more reason for C/Z to move up.

>>> I understand it's difficult to give a thoughtful review when you're typing as you're watching; but be a little more fair with what you say.

I am just warning of your criticism. It goes for everything and everybody (including myself). I know skaters who read these message boards, and I guess just want to remind everyone be careful of what you say because they are aware.[/QUOTE]



Icedancer18, thank you for posting that. I have been horrified at some of the things that have been written during this competition, here but even more at FSU. It makes me wonder, who are these people? And how could these things possibly be helpful to a skater who is reading this, finding out that she is being called a ****, or other useless comments, by some---adults? For God's sake, some of these kids are 14 years old.

My reason for reading these is for the play-by-play of the competition as it unfolds (if there is no internet or tv access). But I will no longer be visiting FSU. Hopefully Goldenskate will take a higher road.

I was actually shocked by the comments about costumes. First of all it's not the most important part of figure skating and the second is that comments were mostly unfair. Costumes are always a matter of tastes and I wouldn't say I always agree on this point with dorispulaski.

Fashionista said:

I was actually shocked by the comments about costumes. First of all it's not the most important part of figure skating and the second is that comments were mostly unfair. Costumes are always a matter of tastes and I wouldn't say I always agree on this point with dorispulaski.

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How about costumes weirdly out of place with the music? Findlay / Richaud skated to "The Mission" and she wore a skimpy fuschia costume that made her look like a Las Vegas showgirl. How did that fit with the theme (a tragic story about the destruction of a Brazilian Mission during the Colonial period, and the enslavement of the natives)?