Sasha Cohen's big gamble

Particle Man said:

proponents of "olympic experience matters not medals!"

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I was taught in an American public school that one plays to win, but if not, one must accept the loss graciously. I'm sure that idea comes from the British and probably said much better than I have. Still something of participation should have merit. Unfortunately, in the Figure Skating World, participation is limited.

According to the Rules of the USFS and the OIC, Sasha has a right to compete and bump someone off the USA team at Nats. Over and out.

Joesitz said:

According to the Rules of the USFS and the OIC, Sasha has a right to compete and bump someone off the USA team at Nats. Over and out.

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I agree 100%. I don't care what her motives are to make a comeback, and I don't care if she just waltzes along to Nationals w/o competing all fall, and happens to make the team despite landing 3 triples. What bothers me is the very same people who complained how unfair it was that Michelle skipping the GP series for 3 seasons and then asking for a bye to the Olympic team based on her past accomplishments (which were as recent as the year before) are the very same people who are begging Sasha to make a comeback, lauding her as the best chance the US has for a Ladies' podium finisher. And all the while, Sasha is proclaiming if she comes back it's all about the journey, not the medals, after all she has no idea where her medals are.

I'm sure it's not the actual medal that drives any of these athletes, it's the fame, glory and satisfaction knowing you are the best that day, that your hard work finally pays off. Does anyone truly believe Sasha will be more satisfied finally skating a brilliantly clean LP on the grand stage, yet NOT medaling than the skate she had that won her the Silver in 2006? I bet both scenarios would sting almost equally.

If it's true that Sasha has been training on the side, doing all triples and working on 3/3's, and that she has been doing these things since the fall as reported, I think she's further along than if she were to just start serious training in June. Obviously she's kept up her spins and spiral, and the FW in "Moonlight Sonata" looks promising, so she probably isn't as far off track as some think when she falls on her salchow and two foots the toe.

Joesitz said:

I think one has to understand the psychology of Skaters and their avid Fans about a return to the Olys. For example, what was Witt trying to do in returning to compete in the Olys? I could only think she wanted to tie Henie's record, or just to remind all fans that she is the greatest. In her case, however, there were no other German Ladies to prevent them from the Olys, as far as I know.

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I think Witt's reason for coming back in 1994 (aside from the fact - the option was put there for all, so why not take it - like T&D and all the men who came back.) was that she wanted to skate in an Olympics so that her mum could watch her skate there in person - she had not been able to travel to Witt's other Olympic competitions.

Also i think there was some controversy because Marina Kliemann had been in line for the second spot until Witt's re-instatment. Tanja Szewczenko won nationals so it was always a fight for teh second spot. The German federation said they would see the outcome of Europeans before naming the the second person. Szewczenko came 5th, Witt 8h and kilemann 9th. Kielmann stayed at home. It sounds fair enough to me but the decision was not without controversy.

Joesitz said:

I was taught in an American public school that one plays to win, but if not, one must accept the loss graciously. I'm sure that idea comes from the British and probably said much better than I have. Still something of participation should have merit. Unfortunately, in the Figure Skating World, participation is limited.

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The phrase we have over here is "it's not the winning but the taking part that counts."

Of course we're crap at sports (except football or "soccer") and even in that the last time GB won the football world cup was in the 1960s! Seriously though, those trying to turn around the dire sporting situation here in the UK do think that we need a bit more competitive drive. That wantnig to win should not be a "dirty word" in sports and that we've "taken part" enough now, let's start winning!

Ant

Joesitz said:

Sasha has always enjoyed the limelight, and let's face it SOI doesn't have the glitter of an olympics. If I am correct on her need for limelight, I still believe it is a valid motivation but it also requires a lot of hard work. Is she ready to put in the time of hard work?

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Sasha's never been known for her strong work ethic and dedication to training. That put her at odds with both Tarasova and Wagner and scuttled her chance to upgrade her jumping skills.

The only coach she's been able to get along with is Nicks, who pretty much lets her do what she wants. This is not the scenario for a successful return to competition after four years of nothing but show skating. Nicks himself told her if she took two years off, it would be very, very difficult for her to return to competition. The rumor is she's going back to Nicks if she opts for Vancouver, and the two years has stretched to four.

chuckm said:

Sasha's never been known for her strong work ethic and dedication to training. That put her at odds with both Tarasova and Wagner and scuttled her chance to upgrade her jumping skills.

The only coach she's been able to get along with is Nicks, who pretty much lets her do what she wants.

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I guess I've never really heard that she didn't have a strong work ethic...or is that according to Chuckm???

As far as Mr. Nicks is concerned, I don't think you have it right....have you ever seen the vid where he makes her cry???

I think the main issue here is not if she compete or not but how she gets to Vancover. MOst probably we will only have 2 spots for the ladies. This means that Sasha would have to place in the top 2 at Nationals. If she can do that, then she will have proven herself fit to go and nobody can scream about "miss so and so was robbed" because sasha will have beaten her, fair and square, just as if that little girl was competeing 34 years ago.

I can't see Sasha being granted a bye...with onlt 2 spots and since she has not competed in a long time, she is not the reigning olympic or world champion or ever was olympic or world champion.

Sasha wants to go the Olympics like Rachel and Alissa and Caroline and Mirai and everybody else does...maybe more. She will be in the same competetion with all the other girls who want it that badly. If she can come out on top, or at least second best, then she will go, deserves to go.

Sasha or no sasha, there will be a bunch of dissipointed skaters after nationals 2010. Wether sasha or somebody else gets the slot shouldn't matter to the person who didn't get it.

Sasha talked about how she thought the top 3 at nationals should go before Michelle dropped out. Michelle was coming off an injury that supposedly flared up and many people thought Michelle was kidding herself about returning for the Olympics and that is a reason why a lot of people thought Emily should go. Also in 2006 the Olympic previous gold medalist were 16, 15 and 16 so someone 25 was considered old until in 2006 when Arakawa won at 24. History shapes people's opinions.

The reason I think Sasha is considering coming back is a few things. When Sasha tried acting she wasn't the best at it and her skating suffered. Sasha had to put in a lot time taking acting classes and doing auditions so no time to train even for shows really. That's not a good thing if skating is her job and acting is something potential for the future. Then she joined SOI and because her body wasn't used to being a full time skater last season she got sick a lot. She was pretty much sick the entire SOI season last year. So she started on a training regimen that included most of the stuff she had to do as a competitive skater. She also is really into all aspects of Yoga now. So Skating is pretty much her life now. Like it was as a competitor though she's not isolated yet. Why not start thinking about a return. It was a thing she left open for many reasons I'd assume. She's been trying to peak train this season trying to get back the training part of competing. It's a lot of hard work and she has been doing it.

Sasha talked about how skating isn't forever but lately she has talked about Todd doing 3a's at 37 and Yuka Sato at 35 being a absolute fab skater still. Sasha is starting to realize that she can be a skater for a while longer. The best way to do that is to stay current and/or up her resume. If she makes the Olympic team she'll be a 3 time and current Olympian. She'll be competing with Mao and YuNa so the viewers will see Sasha competing with them. She has a better chance of being considered to skate at shows in other countries. In this current climate that is something to worry about if skating is her career.

I'm sure Sasha's yoga meditation training is giving her the feeling that her life is okay without gold. It's the journey and the work you put into obtaining goals that matters at the end of the day.

But we'll talking about Sasha here. Sasha knows that she'll get press by trying to make the Olympic team and if she makes that team she'll get a lot of attention. It's not about a gold medal at the Olympics because when the whole us team isn't considered a favorite it doesn't have to be about gold for Sasha to get that the crowd cheering for her and the media talking her good traits up. In her sport being an Olympian is a major and it has the chance to bring attention outside of the sport-perhaps more "acting", perhaps getting to design her own line, perhaps commentating in the future.

I'm of mind to believe all of the above is on Sasha's mind.

I really wish people would go back and re-read/watch those TT and Robin articles and videos. It's not that Sasha has a work ethic issues at all.

opps...double post...

Dee4707 said:

I guess I've never really heard that she didn't have a strong work ethic...or is that according to Chuckm???

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I don't think it's a question of work ethic per se, but the fact coaches have said she can be tough to train because she was so strong willed and would not conform to that coach's program.

TT spoke of how hard she'd work, but then would not follow the schedule TT thought was best (where the baking cookies, competing at a Cheesefest sick, running before the LP at Worlds '03, etc. came into play).

Robin complained that Sasha would rather work on the things she did well and not push outside the envelope (different spin/spiral positions, 3/3's, etc). But I don't think anyone actually accused Sasha of NOT working hard.

Nicks enjoyed telling others that Sasha was different from the pretty, princessy, good girl stereotype. I read recently that Sasha didn't particularly enjoy Nicks making her out to be so tough to deal with and rebellious to get her more attention.

As far as Mr. Nicks is concerned, I don't think you have it right....have you ever seen the vid where he makes her cry???

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Really? When was this-when Sasha deliberately deceived him and did a spin he specifically told her not to do? I forget the competition.

MKFSfan said:

Really? When was this-when Sasha deliberately deceived him and did a spin he specifically told her not to do? I forget the competition.

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I don't know if Sasha deliberately deceived him because I don't know what went on in her mind or what her motives were. I will have to look again and watch the time frame.

If memory serves me right, Nicks said she did it on purpose, that she was set on a different combo spin than was planned, and that she went ahead and did it even though he said right before her skate do not do it. I wish I remembered where I saw it, pretty sure it was online somewhere, and as she came off the ice, you could tell Nicks was not happy and let her have it. She was visibly upset. I remember it coming up again in an interview with him as one of his examples how you can't tell Sasha what to do.

Particle Man said:

So unless some US lady pulls off a miracle, our country is essentially going to be shamed. hwell:

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OK, but don't you think this is something of an exaggeration? For one thing, we can always mitigate our national humiliation by cheering for Lindsay Vonn to win a medal in skiing.

I do not agree with the argument that says, Sasha should not return to competitive skating because she will be taking someone else's spot. As Tinymavy comments so appropriately above, if Sasha wins a spot then it is her spot, not someone else's.

I also do not subscribe to the view that says, Sasha is our only hope, woe is us if she doesn't enter the fray. I will not commit hari-kiri if we send Rachael and Caroline, or if we send Ashley and Mirai, or even if we luck out and get three spots and have to send -- saints preserve us! -- Alissa.

Yes, whoever goes will be trying to win a medal. And yes, they probably won't.

Still, there is no reason to jump off a bridge if our girls end up 5th, 8th and 13th, Sasha or no Sasha.

About Sasha and Mr. Nicks, I think Nicks loved to do his schtick for the press. "Oh that Sasha, she's sure a pistol, I can't do a thing with her (wink, wink.)"

It's that wry British humor we Yanks find so irresistible.

^^^Most definitely so! He fired up his PR press and got her media attention by painting the picture his prodigy was deviating from the stereotypical ice princess/American Sweetheart as a way to set her apart. Definitely made for interesting reading!

MKFSfan said:

If memory serves me right, Nicks said she did it on purpose, that she was set on a different combo spin than was planned, and that she went ahead and did it even though he said right before her skate do not do it. I wish I remembered where I saw it, pretty sure it was online somewhere, and as she came off the ice, you could tell Nicks was not happy and let her have it. She was visibly upset. I remember it coming up again in an interview with him as one of his examples how you can't tell Sasha what to do.

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I think it was 2000 Junior Worlds where this took place. Sasha had to medal there in order to qualify for Senior Worlds. I believe they showed the whole thing with the spin on the Lifetime Network.

MKFSfan said:

As far as giving someone else the shot, well, Sasha wished the same for Emily when Michelle petitioned, said it wasn't fair for Michelle to swoop in and a take a spot.

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Michelle hadn't competed at Nationals that season. You don't even know whether Sasha plans to compete at Nationals, so it is not an accurate comparison. I'll tell you right now, if Sasha doesn't place at Nationals, there's no way in the world she'd be given an olympic spot, whether she wants one or not. Michelle had won Nats the previous season, not to mention everything else under the sun. Sasha won't have competed in 3 years at that point. No free passes for her.

tinymavy15 said:

Sasha or no sasha, there will be a bunch of dissipointed skaters after nationals 2010.

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Not to mention the fans of those skaters screaming all over the forums (lol.)

a bronze for Sasha would be huge success at the Olympics.

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Maybe, but does SHE see it like that? Might be a good question for some reporter to ask her

Well, I personally think Sasha will only return if she has a shot at Gold, or at the very least making the podium (same goes for Michelle, Plushy, Irina, or whoever else is debating a comeback after being on the Olympic podium before). It's a totally different ballgame when you are Sylvia Fontana (right name???) and barely have much hope to make it out of the SP but want to skate in front of your home country, as wonderfully as she did. Sasha can tell everyone it's for the sake of having a purpose again, but I believe there is more to it-fame of being a big story, the glory of winning.

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ITA. I just don't buy the fluff being spouted to the press.

Look, we can all speculate the world over on this topic. But when she states she isn't coming back after all, all this will be moot. (Yes, I know, the word "when" got your attention. )

Mathman said:

Talk about stealing someone's spot. What if you were that young girl hoping against hope to get fourth in the California sectional and make it to regionals -- suddenly you look up and there's Michelle Kwan! (Oh well, at least you can get her autograph. )

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This actually DID happen when Todd E had to qualify after his injury/2 year hiatus to a Midwestern skater. The skater qualified from Upper Great Lakes Regionals to Midwestern Sectionals and placed 5th (Eldridge was 1st, duh) and so ended the 5th place skater's competitive career. On a bright note, said skater came back to compete at Adult Sectionals and Nationals where he placed a respective 1st and 2nd in 2004.

Particle Man said:

Michelle hadn't competed at Nationals that season. You don't even know whether Sasha plans to compete at Nationals, so it is not an accurate comparison. I'll tell you right now, if Sasha doesn't place at Nationals, there's no way in the world she'd be given an olympic spot, whether she wants one or not. Michelle had won Nats the previous season, not to mention everything else under the sun. Sasha won't have competed in 3 years at that point. No free passes for her.

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Right, and Sasha has the right to show up at Nationals without competing at all since 2006, just like Michelle was within her rights to petition for a Bye back in 2006. I think I could've worded my post better to show how I really feel. Personally, I don't care if Sasha shows up at Nationals and makes the team by "bumping" someone off the podium, wins the whole darn thing or is 4th, but placed on the team anyhow. I don't have a dog in this fight and will root for whoever makes it to the Olympics to do well. All I meant was many who were anti-Michelle getting a Bye and therefore bumping poor Emily, etc are pushing for Sasha to come back.

Particle Man said:

Not to mention the fans of those skaters screaming all over the forums (lol.)

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Like you and tinymavy have said, many skaters AND fans are going to be disappointed at 2010 Nats, whether or not Sasha attends. I remember being SO sad/disappointed for Angela in 2002. I wanted her on the team so she could have an Olympic experience, not because I thought she'd place higher than Sasha or Sarah.

MKFSfan said:

Right, and Sasha has the right to show up at Nationals without competing at all since 2006, just like Michelle was within her rights to petition for a Bye back in 2006.

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Another unfair and inaccurate comparison. How can you compare Michelle not having to compete at all to Sasha having to compete at Nationals right along with everyone else? What is her advantage? Are Caroline, Rachael and all the others required to compete in Grand Prix events to then compete at Nationals? No, they aren't. Are you saying Sasha is priveleged by the ability to skip sectionals and regionals?? Do you think it even matters if she would have to go through that, what would it prove?

MKFSfan said:

Personally, I don't care if Sasha shows up at Nationals and makes the team by "bumping" someone off the podium

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There are no more "eras" or "waiting your turn" in skating. Like it or not, we are under CoP. All that matters to judges are points. I love the younger skaters. However, none of them have yet stepped up and proven that they are capable of Olympic gold. I really won't lose any sleep if one of them is "bumped off" by an olympic silver medalist trying for a comeback. Sasha has as much right as anyone else to try to qualify for the Olympics. If we had 2 or more new phenoms vying for OGM, then I might feel differently. We don't. All we have are a big stable of girls with unrealized potential.