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Thread: Sasha Cohen's big gamble

  1. #46
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurofan View Post
    If Sasha goes to Vancouver and gets nothing out of it besides the thrill of competing, I'm sure people will start screaming "wuzrobbed" on behalf of the girl whose place on the team was "stolen."
    Quite true. But then again, Sasha may not care one way or the other about screaming on the Internet.

    Quote Originally Posted by lcd View Post
    Wouldn't rule out the possibility that this is all a calculated mechanism to draw media attention... both to herself, the show, and to the sport.
    I think there is a middle path -- in the middle, that is, between seriously attempting a comeback and just playing us for fools. I think she is "seriously toying" with the idea. "It could happen, maybe I'll work a little on my jumps, see where I'm at, and who knows?"

    Either way, if she does indeed go forward and is viable in the fall, it will be interesting also to see what wildcard "spots" (if any) she is granted by USFS for some international competition experience. While ISU points go back 3 years, with the 3rd year back given less emphasis than the most recent 2, I don't believe she would be in position to be granted anything more than a wildcard spot at the host country event - Skate America - which is in the coming season NOT the first event...
    I am pretty sure you are right about the Grand Prix. I think that, except for the host's exemption, you have to be in the top 75 in the ISU ranking to get an assignment, even as the wild card in some other country's event. I doubt if Sasha would want to go to competitions like Nebelhorn, Karl Schaeffer, etc. -- or that the USFSA would push her to do so.

    On the other hand, as we know, the USFSA does like to put on a big show at Skate America, independent of advancing the fortunes of U.S. skaters trying to make the GP final. They could invite Sasha to Skate America just so they could feature Sasha at Skate America and rack up the ticket sales and TV rating points. And if Sasha bombed there, it would give her an opportunity to back away more gracefully (oops, that old injury acting up again) than if she waited until U.S. Nationals.

    Sasha doesn't have to compete in any event before Nationals. She has an automatic bye for being a reigning Olympic medalist -- unlike Michelle, who would have to go through sectionals and regionals, unless she could find some international competition instead that just happened be held on the right day.

    Talk about stealing someone's spot. What if you were that young girl hoping against hope to get fourth in the California sectional and make it to regionals -- suddenly you look up and there's Michelle Kwan! (Oh well, at least you can get her autograph. )
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-11-2009 at 08:56 PM.

  2. #47
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    Well, "they" tried to scream wuz robbed! before Michelle WD from the '06 Olympics. Actually, some still did-Michelle "stole" Emily's opening ceremonies memories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't know if it is the majority opinion, but it is certainly mine. Of what earthly good are the Olympic games except for the thrill that competing in the Olympics brings to the participants?

    If we want to know, "what good are Kimmie's and Emily's Olympic memories?" -- we must ask them.
    Yawn. So tired of people missing the point.

    That's nice for Kimmie and Emily (both of whom I like) that they have "Olympic memories." Whoopie for them. We all have lots of memories, and we don't have people on forums arguing as to whether we should have had them or someone else should have had them. The argument people make is "Oh my god, our new girls need to go to the Olympics 2010 even if they have no chance, so they'll have experience for next time!" That's utter crap. That's where Kimmie and Emily come into the example. They had their little "experience" and now are barely even in contention for Nationals medals let alone World ones. Add in the fact that - what past ladies OGMist had a prior "Olympic experience"? Not Sarah Hughes, not Tara Lipinski. So the argument is a total joke.

    Athletes go to the Olympics for medals. If all you want is the "Olympic experience", buy a damn ticket.
    Last edited by Particle Man; 03-11-2009 at 09:15 PM.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Particle Man View Post
    The argument people make is "Oh my god, our new girls need to go to the Olympics 2010 even if they have no chance, so they'll have experience for next time!"
    ? Next time? I have never heard anyone advance this argument. Are you sure you are not inventing it? Can you give a reference?

    I think instead the argument goes, Sasha, Michelle, Peggy Fleming, etc., had a chance to go to the Olympics. Hooray for them. Now let someone else have a chance to show what they can do.
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-11-2009 at 10:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ? Next time? I have never heard anyone advance this argument. Are you sure you are not inventing it? Can you give a reference?
    I could probably find at least a dozen posts just on this forum, just in the past month(?) about it. tonichelle was one of the big proponents of "olympic experience matters not medals!" I'm eating and watching BSG online right now, remind me later to link them for you. :frown2:

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Particle Man View Post
    I could probably find at least a dozen posts just on this forum, just in the past month(?) about it. tonichelle was one of the big proponents of "olympic experience matters not medals!" I'm eating and watching BSG online right now, remind me later to link them for you. :frown2:
    You're on!

    Remember now, your claim was that people were saying, send the younger ones in order that they can get experience that will help them do better four years later, at the next Qlympics.

    No cheating by linking to posts that say, let someone else enjoy the "Olympic experience" just because the experience of participating in the Olympics is so cool.

    Edited to add: We are not, of course, talking about posts that say, "Well. I don't think Coaroline Zhang has much of a chance to win a medal in Vancouver, but maybe by the time Sochi rolls around she will be at the top."

    We are searching for posts that say, "We should send Caroline Zhang to Vancouver (leaving a more deserving older skater home) for the purpose of giving Caroline some Olympic experience that will help her win a medal later."
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-12-2009 at 12:34 AM.

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    "Ladies LP - Actual Competition Thread" started the horribly stupid arguments about how 'medals don't matter but Olympic experience does matter'. But you're right, seems it was actually SF forum that had the dozens of horribly stupid posts about how "Olympic experience matters for their future Olympic chance." I apologize for conflating one horribly stupid argument with another.

  8. #53
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    ^ Truce.

    I guess my problem is that I am not all a-twitter over medals.

    Who will win the Olympic Gold Medal in Vancouver? Will it be Mao Asada? Yu-na Kim?

    Is this an important question? Well, it certainly is if you are Yu-na Kim or Mao Asada.

    If you are one of the other six billion people on the planet, I would have to say, no, not so much.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel View Post
    While perusing the reviews of SOI, IIRC, Cohen fell on a 3S last week in one of her programs. She has a LONG way to go to be ready to compete again.
    As big a skeptic as I am and as much as I agree with you, one missed jump in a showpiece is not much to go on. As Ant said, it happens all the time. FTR, I watched her fall on that jump.

    If [Cohen] does [return], she says it isn't because she's missing the gold, but rather because she misses the competition and wants to compete again at the Olympics. If that is the case then she won't be worrying about who she could beat or who could beat her, just about her own skating.
    And you actually buy this? You really, honestly think she'd endure the grueling Olympic schedule just because she "misses competition"? I've a bridge for sale in the Bay area...

    Even if she said this, I don't think she's being honest with herself (or with us, or both). She went in 2006 and got silver. The only step up from that is Gold. Why go back unless, somewhere in the back of your mind, you think you can still win it? Otherwise it's a waste of time and health imo.

    Say she returns, gets on Team USA 2010, and grabs a bronze. Do you think she'd be beaming on the Podium? Something tells me no.

    If Cohen wants the "Olympic experience" she could EASILY go there as a side reporter or even an analyst. I'm sure NBC wouldn't mind having her on, but they'd better not have her commentate :banging:
    Last edited by R.D.; 03-12-2009 at 12:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Who will win the Olympic Gold Medal in Vancouver? Will it be Mao Asada? Yu-na Kim?

    Is this an important question? Well, it certainly is if you are Yu-na Kim or Mao Asada. If you are one of the other six billion people on the planet, I would have to say, no, not so much.
    Umm, this is silly? Certainly their fans care. Certainly a lot of people in Korea would care if Yun-a won, it would be a great point of pride for the country. Certainly Shizuka's promotion to a celebrity and parades in her honor in 2006 showed that people cared that she won. Certainly many in the audience in Salt Lake 2002 cared that Sarah Hughes had an amazing skate and enjoyed the drama of the win that night. I just REALLY don't get where you are coming from here. Are you being serious?

    Perhaps you don't care because for the first time in forever, the US has essentially no chance at ladies OGM? Or because you are as angry as I am at the flawed mechanics of CoP? THAT I could understand, but even though I hate most things about CoP, and even though I'm dejected at our country having basically zero chance for ladies OGM, I'll still be interested to see who prevails in 2010, be it Kim, Asada or someone else pulling off an amazing upset.

    I know it's an honor for someone to be able to say they competed at the Olympics, and maybe if I was from some small country I could get excited that we would even be sending someone, or that they might make something like the top 6. But I'm from the US. We won ladies OGM for how many straight Olympics? And Sasha still pulled off silver in the last one. So just saying "we sent these girls to the Olympics!" or "we finished in the top 6!" is terribly anticlimactic. There are also a lot of people out there who don't really care about skating until the Olympics is on. They may have no idea how hopeless things really are for us, and get smacked in the face when they see no US lady on the podium - or even worse none in the top 6, which is possible. So unless some US lady pulls off a miracle, our country is essentially going to be shamed.

    But even though shame is almost definitely in store for the US, I still care about the stories and struggles of the top competitors from other countries. I just hope NBC bothers to make a few of those "useless fluff pieces" to tell their stories. Then maybe more people WILL care who wins...

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Still the thread is labled Sasha Cohen's big gamble
    That was the headline of the article that was linked in the first post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    And you actually buy this? You really, honestly think she'd endure the grueling Olympic schedule just because she "misses competition"? I've a bridge for sale in the Bay area...
    Maybe and maybe not. You're not Sasha Cohen so whatever you think will be pure speculation. Even more to the point - you don't know her at all personally so again any speculation about the truth behind the statement is pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    Even if she said this, I don't think she's being honest with herself (or with us, or both). She went in 2006 and got silver. The only step up from that is Gold. Why go back unless, somewhere in the back of your mind, you think you can still win it? Otherwise it's a waste of time and health imo.
    Again, at some point you ahve to take what you're told at face value. Choen has been away from the competitive world for three years. I don't know much about sports psychology but the one thing i do know is that the key to competitive success is plan a training program that gets you exactly where you need to be at exactly the right time and to perform when you have to to the best ofyour potential. The placement of others and their performance is out of your hands, your actual placement compared to others is out of your hands. The only thing you can control is your own performance and the journey to get there.

    Maybe she's finally addressed/addressing the psychological side of skating and this is exactly how she feels about it and the reason why she thinks she might come back?

    Alternatively - imagine that skating is all you've ever done since you were little. You've trained and given everything to that. She feel burned out and fed up by the end of the last Olympic cycle and want to do something that you enjoy again. You try your hand at acting, you skate in shows etc etc. Then you loko back and think - you know what it wasn't that bad. Acting hasn't taken off like i might have hoped and heck I was a great skater - one of the best int he world for a number of years. Why not give it another go? The familiarity alone, and the snigle mindedness required for training must be of some comfort?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    Say she returns, gets on Team USA 2010, and grabs a bronze. Do you think she'd be beaming on the Podium? Something tells me no.
    Lu Chen was overjoyed with her Bronze in Nagano - she'd won the bronze ni the last Olympic cycle too. She went through a lot in the interim, and i would think that a bronze for Sasha would be huge success at the Olympics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle Man View Post
    Umm, this is silly? Certainly their fans care. Certainly a lot of people in Korea would care if Yun-a won, it would be a great point of pride for the country. Certainly Shizuka's promotion to a celebrity and parades in her honor in 2006 showed that people cared that she won. Certainly many in the audience in Salt Lake 2002 cared that Sarah Hughes had an amazing skate and enjoyed the drama of the win that night. I just REALLY don't get where you are coming from here. Are you being serious?
    I'm confused because you've just spent a number of posts saying that "olympic experience" is worthless - whoopdie do - only the actual people involved give a rusty hoot about it, and then say that of course it matters - but only if you win??

    I would have thought that fans of both Kimmie and Emily were overjoyed at their being able to take part in an Olympics. Not just from their perspective but also all of their family, friends, and importantly too - their fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle Man View Post
    I know it's an honor for someone to be able to say they competed at the Olympics, and maybe if I was from some small country I could get excited that we would even be sending someone, or that they might make something like the top 6. But I'm from the US. We won ladies OGM for how many straight Olympics? And Sasha still pulled off silver in the last one. So just saying "we sent these girls to the Olympics!" or "we finished in the top 6!" is terribly anticlimactic. There are also a lot of people out there who don't really care about skating until the Olympics is on. They may have no idea how hopeless things really are for us, and get smacked in the face when they see no US lady on the podium - or even worse none in the top 6, which is possible. So unless some US lady pulls off a miracle, our country is essentially going to be shamed.
    Your country will be shamed because of a lack of US lady on the podium at the Olympics??? I think you're raising the importance of figure skating AND the Olympics waaaaaay out of proportion. I bet a lot of money that 2010 will be remembered by most people for awful ecomonic situation, they'll remember that pinch more than the US not making the podium in an Olympic competition.

    Maybe it's a good thing that the US ladies are in this state - every other country has had to go through it (Russia is also going through it but even worse than the US). It keeps things real.

    Bare in mind (and i know you have acknowledged it in your post) that some countries not only have to qualify their lone spot at the Olympics at worlds, but if the skater does not also qualify through tough national olympic committee test then they may not even be allowed to go.

    Ant

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    Well, I personally think Sasha will only return if she has a shot at Gold, or at the very least making the podium (same goes for Michelle, Plushy, Irina, or whoever else is debating a comeback after being on the Olympic podium before). It's a totally different ballgame when you are Sylvia Fontana (right name???) and barely have much hope to make it out of the SP but want to skate in front of your home country, as wonderfully as she did. Sasha can tell everyone it's for the sake of having a purpose again, but I believe there is more to it-fame of being a big story, the glory of winning.

    As far as giving someone else the shot, well, Sasha wished the same for Emily when Michelle petitioned, said it wasn't fair for Michelle to swoop in and a take a spot. But I guess, just like Sasha is "young" at 24 and Michelle was ancient after Nagano, the story has been re-written for Sasha and I doubt her fans will complain, any more than Michelle fans did, about the others being denied.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Particle Man View Post
    I just REALLY don't get where you are coming from here.
    For me, it's like this.

    My favorite skater is Michelle Kwan. Michelle Kwan won a lot of skating contests during her career. I have no doubt that Michelle Kwan feels proud of her accomplishments and cherishes her medals.

    But I do not cherish Michelle Kwan's medals. I do not keep Michelle Kwan's medals in my sox drawer and pull them out and look at them when I need a boost. What I cherish are Michelle's performances.

    When I feel bad, I can click up the 1999 Worlds exhibition version of the Red Violin, or the 1998 World Pro version of East of Eden (or Rudy Galindo's YMCA). Suddenly God's in His heaven and all's right with the world.

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    Sasha isn't "gambling" anything. She hasn't thrown her hat in the ring yet, and I'd be surprised if she did. Her falling on a salchow in a program she's done day in and day out all season isn't proof of anything, but it is proof that she doesn't plan to train full out until after SOI is done for the summer.

    On that basis, the cynic in me says there is NO WAY Sasha could possibly be prepared to charge back into competitive skating with six months of real training, after an absence of nearly four years.

    And if she DID decide to come back, I do not believe for one moment that Sasha would be pleased to win a bronze medal in Vancouver. The only thing Sasha wants from the Olympics is that gold medal, and if there is no realistic chance for her to get it, she won't be back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't know if it is the majority opinion, but it is certainly mine. Of what earthly good are the Olympic games except for the thrill that competing in the Olympics brings to the participants?
    I think one has to understand the psychology of Skaters and their avid Fans about a return to the Olys. For example, what was Witt trying to do in returning to compete in the Olys? I could only think she wanted to tie Henie's record, or just to remind all fans that she is the greatest. In her case, however, there were no other German Ladies to prevent them from the Olys, as far as I know.
    The returning boys all had motivations in that same Oly but I believe to some extent, with all those splats they lost some popularity (not much, but some). That's the Gamble of the thread. However, it did increase attendance in Live and TV viewership. (only to be knocked down by the SLC scandal. but that's another topic.)

    Sasha has always enjoyed the limelight, and let's face it SOI doesn't have the glitter of an olympics. If I am correct on her need for limelight, I still believe it is a valid motivation but it also requires a lot of hard work. Is she ready to put in the time of hard work?

    Sasha's ardent Fans as well as Michelle's ardent Fans just want to see them both skate in world wide event - win or lose, doesn't matter.

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