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Thread: Chock Full of Gold

  1. #31
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    In fact, I see them surpassing D/W after the Olys.
    It does seem like there has been a sea change in ice dance, and that it is becoming more like singles skating in this respect.

    In the old days, teams would rise to the top slowly. Each had to wait in line until the teams above them retired. The next-to-top finishers at the Olympics would automatically be pencilled in as the medalists four years thence.

    Now, teams seem to have a lot shorter shelf life. Belbin and Agosto give way to Davis and White, and Davis and White in turn are soon to be surpassed by the next wave. Two years ago Domina and Shabulin were all but given the 2010 Olympic gold medal. Now they are being pushed aside by Khokhlova and Novitski.

    Also, injuries seem to be playing a much greater role than before. There is no guarantee that Delobel and Schoenfelder, or Belbin and Agosto, or Domnina and Shabulin will even make it to Vancouver.
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-15-2009 at 04:51 PM.

  2. #32
    Banned AwesomeIce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by icedancexpert View Post
    hmmm...interesting. I find their "rapport" forced. They do all the arms and they try to make their faces show that they feel their music but after I finish watching them skate, I don't feel anything.
    By the way, I just checked their ISU profile and he is already 20 (he looks younger). They are a solid team but I don't think they have the chemistry or the appeal (as a team) that it takes to be a great team.
    I think they are FAR more appealing than Davis and White.

  3. #33
    Always supporting skaters :) 100yen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AwesomeIce View Post
    I think they are FAR more appealing than Davis and White.
    I think D/W seem more appealing because they are actually enjoying every moment of it and enjoying skating instead of just really trying to put on a face to win as many medals as you can. That's just how it seems to me.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by AwesomeIce View Post
    I think they are FAR more appealing than Davis and White.
    Yesss! But Madison with Charlie or Scott will look much, much better. She really FEEL the music

  5. #35
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 100yen View Post
    I think D/W seem more appealing because they are actually enjoying every moment of it and enjoying skating instead of just really trying to put on a face to win as many medals as you can. That's just how it seems to me.
    I can agree with you as far as facial expression is concerned. They have it over C/Z and should. They've been around a long time, but their body language for me is just too expected and never surprising. Spilband knows how to sell it.

    C/Z do not yet have the body language, and she can be over-the-top in exhuberance, but my point was, I believe he will know how to handle her by next year and he will move the body thusly so that there is no doubt of what they are feeling. Facial expressions for me are just Acting 101, Body language is classical dance. I hope Spillband guides them and not leads them.

  6. #36
    Banned AwesomeIce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 100yen View Post
    I think D/W seem more appealing because they are actually enjoying every moment of it and enjoying skating instead of just really trying to put on a face to win as many medals as you can. That's just how it seems to me.
    You don't think Davis and White are out there trying to win as many medals as they can? I've always gotten the impression that that is all they are after.

    I find C&Z more appealing because she's not as stumpy and sloppy looking as Meryl.

  7. #37
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Zuerlein is just not as strong a partner as either Agosto, Moir or White. And these days, if you will check out what is actually required from the protocols, the current version of the ice dance rules favors smaller girls and stronger guys than in the days of K&P, for example:

    OD:
    Twizzles, midline not touching step, dance spin, lift, a step sequence with holds, and an optional noncounting lift

    Note than only one element, the sequence with holds, favors tall, long legged teams. And even that element, because of the requirement to get so many turns and edges in, is also harder for taller teams/skaters.

    FD:
    Dance spin, twizzles, 3 regular lifts, one lift that can be a combination, and one optional non scoring lift, and 2 step sequences. 6 of the 8 elements favor or at least do not discriminate against shorter girls with strong partners.

    And this, my friends, is why K&N, D&W, Shibutanis, and DelSchoes have all done very, very well this year.

    While it is still possible for a team that is closer in height & weight to do well, it is more difficult for them. This is one reason why it has been harder for B&A and DomShabs to get the higher levels, and to keep their spots this year. Only V&M among the similar height senior teams has really been able to keep their levels.

    Ice dance as a sport has changed, and whether you like it or not, that's how it is.

    However, it could well be that next year, post Olympics, the changes that are made to the rules will favor taller couples of similar height again.

    As to D&W, they seem to be a very intelligent couple. I find myself saying, I wish they would work on this thing or that thing, and sure enough they do. When interviewed, it is clear that they understand both their strengths and their shortcomings. So I will not be at all surprised if they continue to improve.

    If you're going to worry about Meryl's leg length, frankly we should save the money and skip the skating entirely. We should just name Miss Universe (who is always tall and leggy) the ice dance world champion.

    However, I enjoy all these couples in their different ways. The only top couple's FD this year that I really do not care for is Faiella & Scali's Moonlight Mimes FD.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 03-15-2009 at 08:48 PM.

  8. #38
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    I agree that Zuerlein is quite weak for Shpilband male dancer - his male dancers are usually outstanding (Agosto & White come to mind), while his female partners are weaker than average. In fact, I thought Zuerlein was the weakest man in the top 6 at JW (I thought Hill and Kiselev, though they didn't medal, were excellent and far superior to their partners). Honestly, the team so far is all about Madison. The way that Shpilband's previous teams have developed concerns me that her weaknesses will not be addressed. She already seems to be developing a habit of piking at the waist, kind of like Meryl Davis does sometimes. I get no originality, no real feeling from them (I don't GET anything from him). It seems very fake, like they could be skating to anything.

    Doris, I think leg length is all about personal preference. I'll admit that I enjoy tall, long limbed dancers. It might not be fair, but it's just the way it is for some people. I think it's more aesthetically pleasing (the same way I find Nastia Liukin more aesthetically pleasing than Shawn Johson).

  9. #39
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Obviously, everyone has their preferences for what they like to watch. As well they should! I enjoy watching K&N and DomShabs and both V&M and D&W and DelSchoes and B&A. Their shortness or tallness or short leggedness or long leggedness doesn't bother me.

    However, not understanding the rules, and confusing personal preference with what the technical scores are actually awarded for leads to uninformed conclusions. And no oleada, I am not accusing you of this

    It is odd that Zuerlein is that weak for a Shpilband male partner. However, perhaps Igor has not yet finished with him yet. The Shpilband boys seem to improve steadily throughout their careers. It's the girls who sometimes stall and do not improve as quickly.

    Meryl is an exception for a Shpilband girl-she has improved every year, & although there are still things she needs to fix, there are a lot less of them than last year, say. I really respect D&W for recognizing their shortcomings and steadily working on all of them.

  10. #40
    Ice Dance Obsessee lmarie086's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    As to D&W, they seem to be a very intelligent couple. I find myself saying, I wish they would work on this thing or that thing, and sure enough they do. When interviewed, it is clear that they understand both their strengths and their shortcomings. So I will not be at all surprised if they continue to improve.

    If you're going to worry about Meryl's leg length, frankly we should save the money and skip the skating entirely. We should just name Miss Universe (who is always tall and leggy) the ice dance world champion.
    That's something I really appreciate about them as well. They do seem very intelligent and willing to work on their weaknesses. They're nowhere near perfect, but they improve from one competition to the next. I really respect that about them, and it keeps me looking forward to seeing what they do/improve on next.

    The whole leg length thing doesn't matter to me as much, but I can definitely understand the bias for dancers with long legs. But if a girl with short legs is trying and willing to improve, it's not going to make all that much of a difference to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by oleada View Post
    entire post
    I think you hit the nail on the head oleada. This team is all about Madison, he's almost invisible at times (kinda like K/N, though he's more noticeable than he used to be). And that's probably one of the biggest problems I have with them portraying Phantom and Christine. The Phantom is a powerful role- Greg should have utter command and make audience focus on HIM. But he does no justice to the role, and he and Madison have the typical angsty expression that doesn't develop in any way throughout the dance- there's no light and shade (and I definitely think there can be). IMO, Madison is too vivacious as Christine, who's supposed to be more demure (I just happen to really love the story so it bothers me lol). And after D/V's excellent FD from 2006, this disappoints me a lot. There's a lack of understanding the music that really disappoints me as well-they don't interpret it IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Meryl is an exception for a Shpilband girl-she has improved every year, & although there are still things she needs to fix, there are a lot less of them than last year, say. I really respect D&W for recognizing their shortcomings and steadily working on all of them.
    Thanks for saying that. I definitely think Meryl has her areas to improve on, and I think she probably recognizes this. If you've ever seen D/W's FD from 2006 JW there's a smoother quality to her skating-I think her extension and toe point are overall better there than it has been in awhile (though it's improving again, to her merit). I think a big thing was sacrificing that to gain speed and power; now that they've gained that I'm expecting her to bring that back. D/W's unison was quite off last season, but this year it's been much better. So they're both willing to work on their weaknesses (I hope the next one is posture).
    Last edited by lmarie086; 03-16-2009 at 02:21 PM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    If you're going to worry about Meryl's leg length, frankly we should save the money and skip the skating entirely. We should just name Miss Universe (who is always tall and leggy) the ice dance world champion.
    You every time wright the same things. We have in ice dance a lot off small girls with good body type and lines and who skated really well - Khohlova, Chock, Isa (compare to Oly), Rubleva, Capelinni..... They are not Miss Universe, but have greate body types.
    And Samuelson not Miss Universe, but have good balettick preparation. And Hubbel....
    I agree - Zuerlein is weakest patner for Shpilband group (maby in another group he will be best - i dont know), but Chock is strongest girl in his group (since Silvershtein - IMHO) and she is only 16th. Will be interesting what she will show for us in future

  12. #42
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    And indeed I will continue to say it every time that criticism is brought out .Fine, complain about the girl's extension or toe point. That is a valid thing to complain about. Length of leg or physical proportions?
    Quote Originally Posted by AwesomeIce
    stumpy
    Not so much.

    Just insulting someone's physical features is stupid. And mean, too.

    In fact, Jamie Silverstein had a very similar body type to Meryl Davis, and in addition, while we are criticizing physical appearances, she had a large mouth and no chin. None of that takes away from the brilliance of the way she and Justin were able to move in and out of holds. However, you will notice that in addition to having relatively short legs, she also did not have perfect toe point and extension.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkLcfe6Wkvw
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-bMD...eature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz5CvkGfqUo

    Yes, Emily Samuelson has significantly better leg extension and toepoint than Meryl Davis (and also than most anyone else, including Shae Lynn Bourne in the above first clip, not to mention Jamie Silverstein). However, she and her partner do not have the speed and depth of edge that Meryl and Charlie do. And they are really weak in the dance spins. Each team has something to work on, and something that they are exceptional for.

    Yes Madison Chock is a very interesting dancer, and it will be interesting to see how she develops. However, she could use a stronger partner. I hope Greg will work hard to bring himself up to her level. These days, that is a particular problem with the spins and lifts, given there are so many in the required, graded technical elements. I was not particularly impressed with C&Z's lifts (as senior lifts. They were more than adequate for junior lifts.).

    Or Madison could get a different partner. She is very young, and I expect to see her develop nicely. Zuerlein is only a year younger than Charlie White, and has a long, long way to go to reach Charlie's level.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 03-16-2009 at 07:30 AM.

  13. #43
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    Thank you for the video!
    In fact, Jamie Silverstein had a very similar body type to Meryl Davis, and in addition, while we are criticizing physical appearances, she had a large mouth and no chin - for me Jamie had different body type in 15th (on this video). And i didnt talk about Meryl face - i talk only about her lines and body lines, wich is very important in ice dance. Jamie was born for ice dance - she was reall diva on ice
    Emily Samuelson has significantly better leg extension and toepoint than Meryl Davis (and also than most anyone else, including Shae Lynn Bourne in the above first clip, not to mention Jamie Silverstein). However, she and her partner do not have the speed and depth of edge that Meryl and Charlie do.
    .

    I think S/B have a greate speed and power (like Hubbels). Thats was there difference from another junior teams. Strange, before you post, that worst part of S/B skating is there balletick preparation, now you talk they didnt have speed - what we will read next time? Something about Emily face?
    I was not particularly impressed with C&Z's lifts - reallys strange, because there first lift - D/W lift, one lift - Kh/N - you like D/W liftes i thought
    I must admit, i didnt say, C/Z is better D/W - no. I said - Chock with Wiht could be greatest team now.

  14. #44
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Wow, poor Greg, how he is being beaten down for appearing like the 'boy next door' instead of the 'leader of the pack'.

    If I am not mistaken, they are Juniors and they won the Worlds Junior Championhip despite the outcries before the competition that they had no rapport. Maybe Greg should take a course in how a Cossak would dance. Apparantly, some fans demand homogenized skating, and they do not see improvements in future. No?

    btw, how long have they been together? How long the Shibutani's?

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    btw, how long have they been together? How long the Shibutani's?
    I think Shibutani have been together from Mai birth
    I think, that problem with Greg is because he is 1 year younger, than Wiht and Moir, but skate like this both was skating maybe in 16-17. But.... Wiht and Moir are one of the best patners in the World. Novitsky not so good, but win ECh - i dont think Greg will have problems in future, because he have greate patner, like Novitsky have graete pathner too.

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