Plushenko will honour us with his presence in 2010!

seniorita · Apr 9, 2009

plush was chasing mosquitos compared to that

i had forgotten about that program, it seems loooooooong ago. I like Preubert 's skating, but i wish he could fix his posture, it is bad.

I think the biggest headcase in the history of fs is sandu, he could be one of the best if not the best skater in the world, lol, his mind was like short circuit when he competed. Black out.
why do you call the extra combo Zayak violation?

bekalc · Apr 9, 2009

It's not just that Daisuke Zakayed it's also his failure to earn 2 spots for the Japan at the Olympics in 2005, the fact that he made multiple errors at that World championships last year, and not just the combination thing. The only "major" title Daisuke has is Four Continents and that's likely for a very good reason. (Although he should have GPF from 2008) Joubert has his headcase issues, all the men do, but he's less of a headcase than Daisuke is.

Blades of Passion · Apr 9, 2009

Buttercup said:
I agree URs can be overly penalized

Yes, and that right there is enough. A competition being decided by an incorrect "rule" rather than the performances.

When I say someone should have won I don't necessarily mean under the exact current CoP rules. I mean objectively.

Just because a law or rule is in place, that doesn't mean it should be seen as correct. You can not change the past, but you can gain a better perspective. Multitudes of artists in the past were not given proper credit because of laws that stated their religious/political beliefs were invalid and therefore their work was not allowed to be published. Under the system they lived in, they were not seen as "winners".

Joubert will always have the title of 2007 World Champion, but it's nothing but a notation in a history book. We can decide for ourselves who the best was.

Also, even with the unfair UR penalty Takahashi should have won under the exact CoP system of 2007. Joubert's program component scores in the LP were ridiculous. He should have been WAY behind Lambiel and Takahashi on that mark, but he wasn't. That was just bad judging.

bekalc said:
It's not just that Daisuke Zakayed it's also his failure to earn 2 spots for the Japan at the Olympics in 2005, the fact that he made multiple errors at that World championships last year, and not just the combination thing. The only "major" title Daisuke has is Four Continents and that's likely for a very good reason. (Although he should have GPF from 2008) Joubert has his headcase issues, all the men do, but he's less of a headcase than Daisuke is.

Wow, talk about BIAS.

Did you seriously bring up Daisuke not doing well at the Worlds in 2005, when Joubert also did very poorly at that event?

Daisuke made multiple mistakes at the 2008 World Championships, but so did Joubert. Have you forgotten about Joubert falling, singling a jump, and leaving out another jump altogether?

seniorita · Apr 9, 2009

plushy in ice gala torino, new costume, new program (nice music,i have no idea what it is), he looks like he lost his weight :clap:

the video shows a part of it and it is from the audience
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWajGDBRKpk

oxade21 · Apr 10, 2009

Yeah, Plushy is BACK!!!!!

bekalc · Apr 10, 2009

Daisuke is.

Wow, talk about BIAS.

Did you seriously bring up Daisuke not doing well at the Worlds in 2005, when Joubert also did very poorly at that event?

Daisuke made multiple mistakes at the 2008 World Championships, but so did Joubert. Have you forgotten about Joubert falling, singling a jump, and leaving out another jump altogether?

Joubert at least finished in the top 10 in 2005 worlds. And he medaled at 2008 Worlds, where as Daisuke had a disasterous skate.

Also Joubert has had more than just "one" good skate at worlds. He was excellent in 2004, 2006, and you can say 2007. Yes, Brian is a bit of a headcase as well, but I'm not sure how you can compare what Joubert did in 2008 to well what Daisuke did (and Daisuke imploded in 2008).

Blades of Passion · Apr 10, 2009

Placement in 2005 is very relative. First of all, he was newer to the scene and didn't have the judges' respect. Second of all, he was injured going into the LP. He did a Quad/Triple and all the other hard jumps in the SP, though.

And, a meltdown in 2008? Are you kidding? His LP was the most difficult we've seen from anyone in the past couple years. He may have fallen twice but he still executed a Quad, a Triple Axel, and 5 other Triples...all while skating with great speed and flow. He finished 4th place and would have finished 3rd, had his last jump not been unfairly worth 0 points. That is a good showing, not a bad one.

BTW - this is a Plushenko thread, so we should probably get back to that.

psycho · Apr 10, 2009

Blades of Passion said:
And, a meltdown in 2008? Are you kidding? His LP was the most difficult we've seen from anyone in the past couple years. He may have fallen twice but he still executed a Quad, a Triple Axel, and 5 other Triples...all while skating with great speed and flow. He finished 4th place and would have finished 3rd, had his last jump not been unfairly worth 0 points. That is a good showing, not a bad one.

Of course it was a meltdown! He went in as an overwhelming favourite, was in good position after the short (two major headcases ahead of him and all the contenders behind him) and then proceeded to fall twice and lose a medal to Johnny Weir who had the worst FS of his season! He was something like 40 points out of first place, and taking into account that people were ready to mail him the gold that year, yeah, that was a meltdown.

Joubert has issues, but compared to some of his competitors he's not a headcase. On a scale from 1 (Sandhu) to Ten (Plushenko) Joubert is a 6. Daisuke is a 4 at best.

Blades of Passion · Apr 10, 2009

That's simply not the definition of a meltdown.

And, again, he lost out on a medal because of a bad rule. NOT because of a lack of quality in his skating.

psycho · Apr 10, 2009

Blades of Passion said:
That's simply not the definition of a meltdown.

And, again, he lost out on a medal because of a bad rule. NOT because of a lack of quality in his skating.

And what is?

And even if you take COP out of this or that jump rule, Johnny still would have beat him because Johnny skated cleanly and he fell all over himself. Even in 6.0 he would have lost. Sorry.

Blades of Passion · Apr 10, 2009

psycho said:
And even if you take COP out of this or that jump rule, Johnny still would have beat him.

Um, no? Johnny only won the Bronze by about 1 point. Takahashi lost around 7 points by adding a double toeloop on to the end of his Triple Lutz (**insert massive eye-roll here**). Who cares if Johnny skated clean? If someone goes out and does nothing but doubles they skated clean, but they sure didn't do much (in the competitive sense). Johnny did 7 Triples; Takahashi did a Quad and 6 Triples, had better footwork sequences, and skated with more speed and attack.

I doubt it would have been different under 6.0. They counted jumps then as well and Takahashi did more, even WITH two falls (which just goes to show how difficult his program was). Plushenko got the Bronze in 1998 after falling 3 times because his program was so loaded that, even with those 3 falls, he ended up doing more than Viacheslav Zagorodniuk, who skated clean and ended up in 4th place.

psycho · Apr 10, 2009

Blades of Passion said:
Who cares if Johnny skated clean? If someone goes out and does nothing but doubles they skated clean, but they sure didn't do much (in the competitive sense). Johnny did 7 Triples; Takahashi did a Quad and 6 Triples, had better footwork sequences, and skated with more speed and attack.

Johnny didn't do doubles though, his technical content was comparable. Their level of skating skills and presentation is also comparable as is their footwork and spins (Dai has better footwork, Johnny has better spins, it balances out)
May I remind you, Johnny had a quad as well. And he didn't fall on it. In 6.0 they would have never given it to Dai because his skate was too much of a mess. And jumps you fall on didn't count for points back then, especially when you weren't doing anything spectacularly difficult compared to everyone else. So Dai went for one more quad than Johnny, but he fell on it. He also fell on his 3A. His landing on the 3Loop was a mess too. Johnny went for a quad, 2 clean 3A and 5 more triples and was clean. Weir wins either way.

Blades of Passion · Apr 10, 2009

Johnny didn't even skate clean, that is blatantly incorrect. His Quad was very flawed and wouldn't be given much credit under 6.0. You also ignored the second part of what I wrote, which completely destroys your argument.

Plus, your assumption of their "presentation being comparable" is incorrect. Takahashi was ahead of Johnny by 3 points in the PCS, deservingly so. The judges clearly preferred his presentation. (Also, watching the performances again, Takahashi didn't actually fall on his second Triple Axel either)

Takahashi lost the Bronze medal because of a bad rule, plain and simple. Not because he skated worse and not because the judges liked him less.

Buttercup · Apr 10, 2009

Blades of Passion said:
Placement in 2005 is very relative. First of all, he was newer to the scene and didn't have the judges' respect. Second of all, he was injured going into the LP. He did a Quad/Triple and all the other hard jumps in the SP, though.

And, a meltdown in 2008? Are you kidding? His LP was the most difficult we've seen from anyone in the past couple years. He may have fallen twice but he still executed a Quad, a Triple Axel, and 5 other Triples...all while skating with great speed and flow. He finished 4th place and would have finished 3rd, had his last jump not been unfairly worth 0 points. That is a good showing, not a bad one.

I'm not going to debate 2007 Worlds anymore because it's OT and we've been through it before. Obviously we disagree on the merits of the top guys' performances there. Regarding 2005, Dai switched to seniors just one year after Joubert, so really if he didn't have the judges' respect, it's not on account of being new, but on account of not being as consistently strong as some of the other guys, Joubert included. Regarding 2008 Worlds, it's not enough to try difficult elements, you have to execute them, too. I wouldn't call it a meltdown - Tomas Verner that year was a real meltdown - but it was a disappointing performance and he should've done better. The EX was good, though.

I really think in wanting to defend Takahashi in this discussion, you are overlooking or downplaying his faults and overstating those of the other skaters. Dai is a very good skater, but he's not perfect, and he sometimes makes mistakes or skates beneath his abilities. He's not the only one who does this, so why get so defensive?

Back to Plushenko, psycho, your Sandhu to Plushenko scale is pretty good! I never much liked Plushy's skating but in terms of going on the ice and delivering, he was in a leaugue of his own once Yagudin retired.

seniorita - Zayak refers to the rules regarding repeated jumps and combinations, named after Elaine Zayak, who won 1982 Worlds by doing 4 (I think) 3Ts. Sometimes skaters lose track of how many LP combos/sequences they've done and tack on an extra jump after what was planned as a solo jump - losing the points for both jumps in the process, because it's an illegal combination. Oda has made this mistake several times, Dai did it at 2008 Worlds, and it's also how Plushy lost to Sandhu at 2003-4 GPF. Everyone knows the rules, and after five years under CoP, we really shouldn't be seeing this sort of mistake anymore.

seniorita · Apr 10, 2009

thanx for explanation

, i ve never heard the name Zayak before, i know the combo rule i just didnt know why you call it like that.
When i saw oda doing it this year my first reaction was :sheesh:NOT again!!Concerning how many times he has done it, he should get a medal just for that!

I never much liked Plushy's skating but in terms of going on the ice and delivering, he was in a leaugue of his own once Yagudin retired.

worlds 2000, I will never get over it.:scowl:

Hsuhs · Apr 10, 2009

seniorita said:
plushy in ice gala torino, new costume, new program (nice music,i have no idea what it is), he looks like he lost his weight
the video shows a part of it and it is from the audience
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWajGDBRKpk

Thank you for the vid, seniorita :thumbsup:

Is that a _new_ costume? black makes you look thinner

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 10, 2009

senorita - That video does show some nice stroking by Evgeni, but not much else in the way of jumps and spins.

As I have mentioned before, we do not know much about Plush's training. My questions which are directed to anyone who knows:

1. Has he maintained his winning technical from 2006?

2. Has he been working on new never before seen Technical?

3. Is the Quad Toe his only big point getter?

4. Have the spins improved?

5. Will he mix lyrical music and bravura music in his routines?

I ask, simply because we know all the answers to these questions about the top contenders from the 2008/09 season.

seniorita · Apr 10, 2009

There are some more videos floating of this show and prague show showing more or less the same, but Lancia Gala will be broadcasted on tv so there will be better videos. By now, only my speculation and i hope not biased

:
1. i think plush will have gained back by next season what he had in 2006, by now he 's been training for two months daily so it is not much yet, the videos of his training show his quads and combo 4-3 or 4-3-2, i doubt he will do a quad in a show, but he is doing triple axels in shows and all his triples quite high, judging only from how he was when i saw him in october, his jumbs are far more better than then, he looks like he jumbs with ease and he is faster.
2. Reports have written that he jumps quad salcow but plush himself said it is for training method he and lutai do, they wont try it.
3. What else he could do for big points? He needs to do a second quad ?That was back in 2002 olympics..Now isnt it 4-3-2 + 2 more triple combos enough?I dunno..

4. I dont have any hope he will sit down in his sit spin, maybe he will find a combination that will give him the maximum points, but I dont expect to improve his sit at all. Do you think it would be ever possible in this age to change a spin?His camel still rocks for me :bow:

5.I have no idea, but expect bravura arms :biggrin:

I hope the tango he 's been skating all season is not his Lp or something, M&D said they had been listening to lots of music pieces to choose, i hope it is not Marton again.

Is that a _new_ costume? black makes you look thinner

yeah, thats new, he 's been wearing black before, he looks much thinner now, i ll see his show in Germany, i ll tell you

Stephan looked great by the way, and in Prague it was also Verner and Brezina

small video with stephan, plushy and tomas
http://www.ct24.cz/sport/51302-hokejisty-vystridali-v-o2-arene-krasobruslari/

Dee4707 · Apr 10, 2009

seniorita said:
worlds 2000, I will never get over it.:scowl:

Seniorita, why won't you get over Worlds 2000??? I'm just curious.

seniorita · Apr 10, 2009

Oh, because plushy had a shot at his first gold if he skated clean and had the biggest ultra super meltdown of his career...
I m watching live stream of Prague 's Kings on ice while at work (i m working hard

), plush really has lost weight a lot, skated a small program, not much to see except 3axel and 3-3, no spins except scratch, i liked it, he seems frech!Rocking costume!
and i loooooved brezina, he did "singing in the rain", sochi's olympic champion?

Plushenko will honour us with his presence in 2010!

seniorita

bekalc

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

seniorita

oxade21

Match Penalty

bekalc

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

psycho

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

psycho

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

psycho

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Buttercup

seniorita

Hsuhs

Joesitz (RIP)

seniorita

Dee4707

Ice Is Slippery - Alexie Yagudin

seniorita

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