Plushenko will honour us with his presence in 2010!

[Blades of Passion]

And even if you take COP out of this or that jump rule, Johnny still would have beat him.

Um, no? Johnny only won the Bronze by about 1 point. Takahashi lost around 7 points by adding a double toeloop on to the end of his Triple Lutz (**insert massive eye-roll here**). Who cares if Johnny skated clean? If someone goes out and does nothing but doubles they skated clean, but they sure didn't do much (in the competitive sense). Johnny did 7 Triples; Takahashi did a Quad and 6 Triples, had better footwork sequences, and skated with more speed and attack.

I doubt it would have been different under 6.0. They counted jumps then as well and Takahashi did more, even WITH two falls (which just goes to show how difficult his program was). Plushenko got the Bronze in 1998 after falling 3 times because his program was so loaded that, even with those 3 falls, he ended up doing more than Viacheslav Zagorodniuk, who skated clean and ended up in 4th place.

[psycho]

Who cares if Johnny skated clean? If someone goes out and does nothing but doubles they skated clean, but they sure didn't do much (in the competitive sense). Johnny did 7 Triples; Takahashi did a Quad and 6 Triples, had better footwork sequences, and skated with more speed and attack.

Johnny didn't do doubles though, his technical content was comparable. Their level of skating skills and presentation is also comparable as is their footwork and spins (Dai has better footwork, Johnny has better spins, it balances out)
May I remind you, Johnny had a quad as well. And he didn't fall on it. In 6.0 they would have never given it to Dai because his skate was too much of a mess. And jumps you fall on didn't count for points back then, especially when you weren't doing anything spectacularly difficult compared to everyone else. So Dai went for one more quad than Johnny, but he fell on it. He also fell on his 3A. His landing on the 3Loop was a mess too. Johnny went for a quad, 2 clean 3A and 5 more triples and was clean. Weir wins either way.

[Blades of Passion]

Johnny didn't even skate clean, that is blatantly incorrect. His Quad was very flawed and wouldn't be given much credit under 6.0. You also ignored the second part of what I wrote, which completely destroys your argument.

Plus, your assumption of their "presentation being comparable" is incorrect. Takahashi was ahead of Johnny by 3 points in the PCS, deservingly so. The judges clearly preferred his presentation. (Also, watching the performances again, Takahashi didn't actually fall on his second Triple Axel either)

Takahashi lost the Bronze medal because of a bad rule, plain and simple. Not because he skated worse and not because the judges liked him less.

[Buttercup]

Placement in 2005 is very relative. First of all, he was newer to the scene and didn't have the judges' respect. Second of all, he was injured going into the LP. He did a Quad/Triple and all the other hard jumps in the SP, though.

And, a meltdown in 2008? Are you kidding? His LP was the most difficult we've seen from anyone in the past couple years. He may have fallen twice but he still executed a Quad, a Triple Axel, and 5 other Triples...all while skating with great speed and flow. He finished 4th place and would have finished 3rd, had his last jump not been unfairly worth 0 points. That is a good showing, not a bad one.

I'm not going to debate 2007 Worlds anymore because it's OT and we've been through it before. Obviously we disagree on the merits of the top guys' performances there. Regarding 2005, Dai switched to seniors just one year after Joubert, so really if he didn't have the judges' respect, it's not on account of being new, but on account of not being as consistently strong as some of the other guys, Joubert included. Regarding 2008 Worlds, it's not enough to try difficult elements, you have to execute them, too. I wouldn't call it a meltdown - Tomas Verner that year was a real meltdown - but it was a disappointing performance and he should've done better. The EX was good, though.

I really think in wanting to defend Takahashi in this discussion, you are overlooking or downplaying his faults and overstating those of the other skaters. Dai is a very good skater, but he's not perfect, and he sometimes makes mistakes or skates beneath his abilities. He's not the only one who does this, so why get so defensive?

Back to Plushenko, psycho, your Sandhu to Plushenko scale is pretty good! I never much liked Plushy's skating but in terms of going on the ice and delivering, he was in a leaugue of his own once Yagudin retired.

seniorita - Zayak refers to the rules regarding repeated jumps and combinations, named after Elaine Zayak, who won 1982 Worlds by doing 4 (I think) 3Ts. Sometimes skaters lose track of how many LP combos/sequences they've done and tack on an extra jump after what was planned as a solo jump - losing the points for both jumps in the process, because it's an illegal combination. Oda has made this mistake several times, Dai did it at 2008 Worlds, and it's also how Plushy lost to Sandhu at 2003-4 GPF. Everyone knows the rules, and after five years under CoP, we really shouldn't be seeing this sort of mistake anymore.

[seniorita]

thanx for explanation, i ve never heard the name Zayak before, i know the combo rule i just didnt know why you call it like that.
When i saw oda doing it this year my first reaction was :sheesh:NOT again!!Concerning how many times he has done it, he should get a medal just for that!

I never much liked Plushy's skating but in terms of going on the ice and delivering, he was in a leaugue of his own once Yagudin retired.

worlds 2000, I will never get over it.

[Hsuhs]

plushy in ice gala torino, new costume, new program (nice music,i have no idea what it is), he looks like he lost his weight
the video shows a part of it and it is from the audience
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWajGDBRKpk

Thank you for the vid, seniorita

Is that a _new_ costume? black makes you look thinner

[Joesitz]

senorita - That video does show some nice stroking by Evgeni, but not much else in the way of jumps and spins.

As I have mentioned before, we do not know much about Plush's training. My questions which are directed to anyone who knows:

1. Has he maintained his winning technical from 2006?

2. Has he been working on new never before seen Technical?

3. Is the Quad Toe his only big point getter?

4. Have the spins improved?

5. Will he mix lyrical music and bravura music in his routines?

I ask, simply because we know all the answers to these questions about the top contenders from the 2008/09 season.

[seniorita]

There are some more videos floating of this show and prague show showing more or less the same, but Lancia Gala will be broadcasted on tv so there will be better videos. By now, only my speculation and i hope not biased:
1. i think plush will have gained back by next season what he had in 2006, by now he 's been training for two months daily so it is not much yet, the videos of his training show his quads and combo 4-3 or 4-3-2, i doubt he will do a quad in a show, but he is doing triple axels in shows and all his triples quite high, judging only from how he was when i saw him in october, his jumbs are far more better than then, he looks like he jumbs with ease and he is faster.
2. Reports have written that he jumps quad salcow but plush himself said it is for training method he and lutai do, they wont try it.
3. What else he could do for big points? He needs to do a second quad ?That was back in 2002 olympics..Now isnt it 4-3-2 + 2 more triple combos enough?I dunno..
4. I dont have any hope he will sit down in his sit spin, maybe he will find a combination that will give him the maximum points, but I dont expect to improve his sit at all. Do you think it would be ever possible in this age to change a spin?His camel still rocks for me
5.I have no idea, but expect bravura armsI hope the tango he 's been skating all season is not his Lp or something, M&D said they had been listening to lots of music pieces to choose, i hope it is not Marton again.

Is that a _new_ costume? black makes you look thinner

yeah, thats new, he 's been wearing black before, he looks much thinner now, i ll see his show in Germany, i ll tell you :P

Stephan looked great by the way, and in Prague it was also Verner and Brezina
small video with stephan, plushy and tomas
http://www.ct24.cz/sport/51302-hokej...krasobruslari/

[Dee4707]

worlds 2000, I will never get over it.

Seniorita, why won't you get over Worlds 2000??? I'm just curious.

[seniorita]

Oh, because plushy had a shot at his first gold if he skated clean and had the biggest ultra super meltdown of his career...
I m watching live stream of Prague 's Kings on ice while at work (i m working hard), plush really has lost weight a lot, skated a small program, not much to see except 3axel and 3-3, no spins except scratch, i liked it, he seems frech!Rocking costume!
and i loooooved brezina, he did "singing in the rain", sochi's olympic champion?

[Mathman]

Oh, because plushy had a shot at his first gold if he skated clean and had the biggest ultra super meltdown of his career.

Yeah, that was a heartbreaker for Plushenko fans. Evgeny could have become the youngest men's champion ever.

Yagudin totally bombed his performance and left the door wide open for Plushenko, but then Plushy came out and did even worse. Yagudin couldn't believe he won!

This was the championship about which Yagudun later said, that's OK, no one will remmeber how bad I skated, they will just remember who won.

[Buttercup]

Yagudin totally bombed his performance and left the door wide open for Plushenko, but then Plushy came out and did even worse. Yagudin couldn't believe he won!

This was the championship about which Yagudin later said, that's OK, no one will remember how bad I skated, they will just remember who won.

That's certainly true for me. I'd totally forgotten the circumstances, all I really remember from 2000 Worlds is the gala, which had some fun performances (also, I think there was a dog on the ice at some point). I didn't get to see any of the 2000-1 season having lost Eurosport for a year, so the next time I saw Yagudin skate it was at 2002 Euros, with his Winter SP which was clearly not a meltdown. 2002 Euros were excellent .

Seniorita, at least Plush got the meltdowns out of his system early in his career; the only other really awful performance I can recall from him was 2004 Euros.

[seniorita]

he didnt do just worse:banging:, he started improvising after he lost the quad, thankfully he has said this helped him come back in 2000-01 the way he did
From I Euros 2004 I choose to remember this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15UjaPyaccw, when he does not do good in combs,he is doing his program in ex, it s my fav gala
I feel sorry for Abt in euros 2002, i read an interview recently and he said his big regret is that he didnt have a gold medal. Maybe that was his opportunity (please dont shoot me, i loved yagudin)
This Plushy show is building up very well since 2006, he is casting great european skaters, i love the jazzy exhibition of stephan.
By the way lambiel, verner and plush need a haircut! And Marton!

[bekalc]

Takahashi lost the Bronze medal because of a bad rule, plain and simple. Not because he skated worse and not because the judges liked him less.

Blades, it's not a bad rule. They have to put a limit on combinations somewhere. IF they didn't than all we'd see is combinations because that would be getting you points. If there isnt' a combination rule every jumping pass would be a combination. So the limit has to be somewhere, and they made the limit 3.

The fact is this rule has been in place for years, and skaters know about it. They know that they cannot do more than 3 combinations, and if they do more than 3 combinations they will lose credit for the fourth combination....

Daisuke should know about this rule more than anyways because if it weren't for that rule, he wouldn't even be an Olympian. The rule cost Oda a National Title and the lone Olympic spot. And I could be wrong but didn't Daisuke make the same mistake at the Olympics?

And really how many skaters do we see screwing up this rule?? Not that many At Daisuke's level and at his experience it was unacceptable.....

[seniorita]

]has anyone heard or better, seen what Plushenko is doing competitively?[/B] Will he skate Russian Nats? Euros? or just go head on into Olys?

Except the videos of Melissa and Denis and some that are posted here of trainings, his quads and stuff, i dont think there is anything to see yet..
If he goes only to Olympics i will kick his butt! Isnt it too early to know his competitions?
From 1-2 recent interviews (via translator, so..), he said that he just wants to participate with best he can do cause he has his olympic medal already so he is not anxious for results, but he trains for gold in Vancouver and any medal would be success for him, he misses competitions feeling, that he remembers how he felt in first Olympics, he wants to compete in RN, Euros and Olympics (the article said also Worlds but I doubt he said that), start with small competition in Finland maybe (?), and i m not sure if he said anything for CupOfRussia, maybe he said that last year