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Thread: Change Of Direction Spins

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    Figure Skater Music Editor singerskates's Avatar
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    Question Change Of Direction Spins

    HI, I've been playing around with upright change of direction spins.
    By the way, I'm a class 3 adult ladies Bronze freeskater and Introductory Interpretive skater.

    What I've found out is that if you're going to do a change of direction during a spin, that it only becomes a variation when you do the same variation in the change of direction that you did before the change of direction and that each has to have at least 3 revs with no hesitation between the directions for it to count towards upping the level of a spin in CPC, IJS and COP. In 6.0 it doesn't really matter except that you might get more Presentation marks.

    The upright that I've been doing is the following;

    CCW Forward basic with leg out (3 revs), diagonal with arm & head to left of centre and free leg held straight a little higher and to the right (3 revs), attitude (2 revs), back catch (3 revs), simple basic (3 revs), step to CW Forward simple basic (have 2 revs and working to get 3)

    For now until my over varied upright spin in my freeskate doesn't include the change of direction, which I tried at WO Boston Pizza but failed to do right, gets a consistant 3 revs in the direction change, I won't be putting it into my freeskate but I will do it when practicing my upright out of the freeskate. I'll just do my upright minus the change of direction in my freeskate.

    I do have a simple change of direction spin in my interpretive; 3 CCW and 2 CW leading upto 3 CW.

    Has anyone other than the world elite ISU and Pro skaters tried or done these change of directions? If so, was the change of direction upright, camel or sit? What is the starting spin and the variation(s) leading to your change of direction spin?
    Last edited by singerskates; 03-15-2009 at 01:51 AM. Reason: make it easier to understand what I'm talking about

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    Quote Originally Posted by singerskates View Post
    What I've found out is that if you're going to do a change of direction during a spin, that it only becomes a variation when you do the same variation in the change of direction that you did before the change of direction
    I'm not sure what you mean by this statement.

    Has anyone other than the world elite ISU and Pro skaters tried or done these change of directions? If so, was the change of direction upright, camel or sit? What is the starting spin and the variation(s) leading to your change of direction spin?
    Joannie Rochette is doing an upright spin with change of direction in her long program this year:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPzZZeBwz3o

    She's aiming for 4 features:
    backward entry
    difficult position (Y position)
    change of edge
    change of direction

    She doesn't always get credit for all of them; sometimes it's called as level 3, sometimes as level 4.

    The forward spin on the left foot, in the middle of the spin, doesn't include any features, but it's needed as a transition to get from the backspin on the right foot and then the forward spin in the other direction on the right foot.

    Otherwise, offhand I only remember some pair teams doing the change of direction in their side-by-side spins, although I can't remember which pairs. And change of direction is more common in pair spins, which are not relevant to what singles skaters are able to do on our own.

    I've been attempting a similar spin, since before I saw Rochette's. I don't do the Y position; I just start with a back attitude spin. So I have many fewer total revolutions on the first foot. And I don't attempt the interesting arm variations (which don't count as features) in the forward spin.

    So I'm attempting
    backward entry
    change of edge
    change of direction

    I very rarely manage to hold both edges on the first foot long enough to get credit for the change of edge. But I figure as long as I get three revolutions on each foot I should get credit for the backward entry and change of direction. I.e., I would usually get level 2, and on a really good day level 3.

    However, I skate at adult bronze level in the US, so I don't have the opportunity to be judged under IJS.

    And therefore, to save time in my program, I decided to do just a forward camel spin on the left followed by a forward upright spin on the right. That should count as a combination spin with one feature. Since there's only one feature it would be level 1 anyway. But under 6.0 judging I hope it will get some recognition for the difficulty of spinning in the opposite direction.

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    Sitting Here on Blue Jay Way silver.blades's Avatar
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    Joannie doesn't do a change of direction spin. It's a change foot combination spin that's done from a backspin to a fwd spin as opposed to a fwd spin to a backspin as is usual.
    Jeff Buttle can spin in both directions. His normally does it in a camel position. I can't remember the programs he's done it in, but he's done it in exhibitions as well as competitive programs, I'll see if I can find the programs later.
    I would assume that Lambiel can also spin in both directions as he can jump an axel in both directions. And I believe that Rohne Ward (SP?) from the US can spin in both directions.
    I'd look for videos of Denice Bielman and Lucinda Ruh because I would be surprised if neither of them could spin in both directions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silver.blades View Post
    Joannie doesn't do a change of direction spin. It's a change foot combination spin that's done from a backspin to a fwd spin as opposed to a fwd spin to a backspin as is usual.
    Did you watch the link? She changes foot twice, and there are there parts of the spin: CCW backspin, CCW forward spin, CW forward spin

    Jeff Buttle can spin in both directions. His normally does it in a camel position. I can't remember the programs he's done it in, but he's done it in exhibitions as well as competitive programs, I'll see if I can find the programs later.
    Yes, Buttle has done spins in both directions one right after another, but there were steps in between so they count as two separate spins, not as one spin with a change of direction.

    Others have done that sort of thing as well under the old system. E.g., Michelle Kwan in her 1998 long program.

    That shows skill at spinning in both directions, but it wouldn't count as a feature under IJS.

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    Rachael Flatt, at the conclusion of her La Mer LP (not sure if this spin is in the newly "reinvigorated" LP from last season that she will be using at Worlds), spins in both directions with the bulk of the bullets for the level in the opposite direction of spinning...very difficult to do.

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    Figure Skater Music Editor singerskates's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Yes, I knew that Joannie and Jeff have done change of direction spins. Joannie is still an elite World level skater and Jeff is now a Pro. I was looking for those who are not world level skaters nor professional skaters who do the change of direction spin.

    "What I've found out is that if you're going to do a change of direction during a spin, that it only becomes a variation when you do the same variation in the change of direction that you did before the change of direction and that each has to have at least 3 revs with no hesitation between the directions for it to count towards upping the level of a spin in CPC, IJS and COP. In 6.0 it doesn't really matter except that you might get more Presentation marks."

    Means that the variation or basic spin you do in the first direction (for me that would be CCW) has to be directly followed by the exact same variation or basic spin in the other direction (my other direction would be CW) with at least 3 revs in the first direction and then at least 3 revs in the other direction to be called a feature that would help to boost the spin level for CPC, IJS and/or COP. And like I said before in 6.0 you just get extra marks in presentation for doing it and it doesn't help your tech scores at all.

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post

    Others have done that sort of thing as well under the old system. E.g., Michelle Kwan in her 1998 long program.

    That shows skill at spinning in both directions, but it wouldn't count as a feature under IJS.

    gkelly - do you have a link to the rules regarding the change of direction as a level feature (I have such difficulty trying to find anything on the isu site).

    I was just wondering whether it would count if you did a clockwise forward spin for the requisite number of turns put down your left foot to stop the spin, immediately cross the right over the left to put you on the LBI in a wound up position to step onto the right foot to spin anti clockwise?

    (I know you need more than one feature to start getting the levels up but i just wondered)

    Ant

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by singerskates View Post
    Means that the variation or basic spin you do in the first direction (for me that would be CCW) has to be directly followed by the exact same variation or basic spin in the other direction (my other direction would be CW) with at least 3 revs in the first direction and then at least 3 revs in the other direction to be called a feature that would help to boost the spin level for CPC, IJS and/or COP. And like I said before in 6.0 you just get extra marks in presentation for doing it and it doesn't help your tech scores at all.
    We cannot say with any certainty what the judges did with their marks under 6.0 but given that spinning in the other direction is technically difficult and somethign that relates to a technical element, I would have thought that the the technical would have have been affected by it and the presentation only if it was used in a particular way to reflect the music.

    Ant

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    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    gkelly - do you have a link to the rules regarding the change of direction as a level feature (I have such difficulty trying to find anything on the isu site).

    I was just wondering whether it would count if you did a clockwise forward spin for the requisite number of turns put down your left foot to stop the spin, immediately cross the right over the left to put you on the LBI in a wound up position to step onto the right foot to spin anti clockwise?

    (I know you need more than one feature to start getting the levels up but i just wondered)

    Ant
    Interesting - at US Adult Nationals last season, someone in Masters Junior did a change combination spin (back start (feature 1), all three positions on one foot (feature 2), stepped over and did an upright spin her normal direction and finished with pushing into an upright in her non-rotational direction for 3 or 4 revs(feature 3)) which was called a CCoSp3. A Gold lady has done that in her change upright spin 3 or 4 times and has had it called a feature as well (CUSp2). The biggest challenge is for it not to get called as a separate spin due to the entry edge which must be short (like when you have a back start combination spin going to a forward spin - the change needs to be short or else some tech teams call it as two separate spins).

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    gkelly - do you have a link to the rules regarding the change of direction as a level feature (I have such difficulty trying to find anything on the isu site).
    I don't know if it's available on the ISU site, but the USFSA makes the "First Aid" for technical specialists available on their site.

    Here's the one for singles skating:
    http://www.usfigureskating.org/conte...%202008-09.pdf

    Look for "both directions" under "Spin in one position with change of foot" and "Combination spin with change of foot."

    There's nothing in there that says the position variation needs to be the same in both directions. I don't know where singerskates heard that from. I think that is true for the change of edge feature, but not for the change of direction.

    I was just wondering whether it would count if you did a clockwise forward spin for the requisite number of turns put down your left foot to stop the spin, immediately cross the right over the left to put you on the LBI in a wound up position to step onto the right foot to spin anti clockwise?
    I'm not sure I understand what you're describing. I think it would make more sense if "left" and "right" or "clockwise" and "anticlockwise" were reversed.
    If you mean taking a crossover in between the two directions, then no; as I understand it that would count as two separate spins.

    Here's Rachael Flatt's combination that mentioned (at the end of the program, 4:23):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXUVcqpEkyU
    She's able to exit the clockwise camel spin on a back inside edge in a windup position to start the counterclockwise spin, but without any extra steps in between. She did get credit for it as one spin.

    Here's Buttle spinning in both directions starting at 3:29:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9k16tQ0nyc
    There are steps in between so it counts as two separate spins.

    From pre-COP programs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI45Qm3YoDw
    Starting at 2:24, three separate spins in alternating directions, with steps in between

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU285dfI7u0
    Many spins in a row at the end of the program. The last three, starting at 3:58, use transitions between directions similar to Flatt's combination spin linked above. The first two or all three might or might not count as a change of direction within the same spin -- the centers might be considered too far apart.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg2lPhTYGNw
    Steps between the two spins starting at 3:45

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-utXsdR9CQ
    Separate sitspins in opposite directions with a step in between, at 7:10
    I'm not sure how the upright spin(s) at 6:04 would be counted; he puts his foot down and stops, then resumes spinning in the opposite direction with both feet on the ice for the cross-foot spin so he needed to put that foot on the ice anyway, and the same center is maintained.

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    Figure Skater Music Editor singerskates's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I don't know if it's available on the ISU site, but the USFSA makes the "First Aid" for technical specialists available on their site.

    Here's the one for singles skating:
    http://www.usfigureskating.org/conte...%202008-09.pdf

    Look for "both directions" under "Spin in one position with change of foot" and "Combination spin with change of foot."

    There's nothing in there that says the position variation needs to be the same in both directions. I don't know where singerskates heard that from. I think that is true for the change of edge feature, but not for the change of direction.
    It was told to me during a monitoring session by Carol Moir, who use to be Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir's old coach who now is in charge of Skate Canada Western Ontario Programs, after competing at this year's Skate Canada WO Boston Pizza StarSkate Sectionals. They had a video of my program running on the computer which I just completed and went through each element with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by singerskates View Post
    Means that the variation or basic spin you do in the first direction (for me that would be CCW) has to be directly followed by the exact same variation or basic spin in the other direction (my other direction would be CW) with at least 3 revs in the first direction and then at least 3 revs in the other direction to be called a feature that would help to boost the spin level for CPC, IJS and/or COP.
    Who told you that? Turns out in the last week I asked one of the more knowledgeable Controllers I know that very question and the answer I got was:

    "Change of direction is awarded as long as there are 3 revolutions before and after. Position isn't a factor."

    What you say used to be the case (when change of direction was first introduced) but according to my guru that is no longer true.

    Also, the change of edge has to be in the same basic position (ISU Communicatin 1494). The variation before and after the change can be different so long as the basic position stays the same.
    Last edited by gsrossano; 03-21-2009 at 06:39 AM.

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    The use of the reverse spin to gain a level is very common in the competitive stream.....basically it is an easy bullet if done properly. Most common position used is the upright, holding it for a minimum no.of rotations (depends upon the skater's level). However - it is very easy to step too wide from the base of the original spin, to fail to centre the spin, to rotate too slowly so as to change the spinning edge (watch some beginners - inside outside inside outside - you'll see what I mean)....

    If a skater can do a decent upright in their wrong direction - but can't do a back sit or back camel - this spin option can give them a higher level than before....ie CCOSP4 = back camel (1) // back upright //coe edge (2) // forward sit for 8 (3)// reverse upright spin (4) .

    But don't hold your breath -- new changes come down the pipe every spring and we will have to wait to see what is up the sleeves of the ISU and Skate Canada this year!!!!

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