Steadily improving Rochette a dark horse

herios · Mar 23, 2009

Article by Bev. Smith in Globe & Mail

http://tinyurl.com/c58xcy

On the second page, it goes through some of the ice dance teams in contention

Joseph

Buttercup · Mar 23, 2009

I must admit I don't "get" Joannie. She looks lovely. She skates very well. She seems nice. But there's no wow factor for me. Still, well done to her for having such a breakthrough season.

Re the dance, Ms. Smith returns to gushing. What seperates V/M (a team I like, BTW) from the rest of the field? "They can make you weep. They are trendsetters, with skill, polish and charisma.". Skill and polish, yes. More skill and polish than everyone else? No. I feel they are standouts when it comes to relating to each other - their connection on the ice is fantastic - and in expression and projecting emotion. But they are not trendsetters, and I don't see them as being in a class of their own in terms of charisma, as Smith suggests.

Mathman · Mar 23, 2009

^ I, too, wish that Ms. Smith had made clear just what "trend" she feels Virtue and Moir have set.

dorispulaski · Mar 23, 2009

There is this twitchy little feeling out there that to be really good, skaters (and ice dancers in particular) must be changing the direction of the sport.
I don't know where that notion first came from, but I can certainly recall Peggy Fleming & Dick Button criticizing Elaine Zayak as not changing the direction of the sport. This was pretty funny, even at the time. You can't change the sport much more than to make TPTB 1. Decide to eliminate the toe walley as a separate jump. 2. Limit the number of the same triple jump in a program. Furthermore, before Elaine, a triple jump was not really required for the ladies. After Elaine, you really couldn't be taken seriously without at least one.

In ice dance, Pakhamova & Gorshkov and Torvill & Dean are always recognized as trendsetters. Some people included the Duchesnays and Bestemianova & Bukin. "Trendsetter" is treated as a higher level of excellence than just champion. Bev wants V&M to be trendsetters because she wants to assert they are on the T&D level, not the Navka Kostamarov level (for example). IMO, V&M have skated beautifully, but I am unaware of any "trends" that they have yet started.

mskater93 · Mar 23, 2009

They have not started trends of the T&D level. They have good edge and flow and difficult elements but they don't move me. She can wish and promote it all she wants, it still doesn't make it so...

Tinymavy15 · Mar 23, 2009

It is stunning to me that she never won a world medal. She is for certain one of the top ladies in skating, certainly stronger than fumie who has at least one world medal to her name. If she is fourth again I will scream!

rosee · Mar 23, 2009

Current Russian champions. … Bronze medalists at the world championships last year in only their third season competing internationally. … This year they have defeated Domnina and Shabalin and, and in the absence of Delobel and Schoenfelder, won the European championship. … Last year their routines were acrobatic and full of tricks.

Why is she talking about last year? Are K&N doing their old routines this year?

herios · Mar 23, 2009

Tinymavy15 said:
It is stunning to me that she never won a world medal. She is for certain one of the top ladies in skating, certainly stronger than fumie who has at least one world medal to her name. If she is fourth again I will scream!

Fumie has actually 3 world medals 1 silver and 2 bronze. Joannie never was higher than 5th, so I am not sure what do you mean by "fourth again".

Perhaps you wanted to say "out of the medals again", that would be another story.

Joannie is clearly the strongest candidate for a medal, beside Mao and Yu-Na based on her season thus far, We will see if she comes through and meets the expectations.

fumie_fumie · Mar 23, 2009

Tinymavy15 said:
It is stunning to me that she never won a world medal. She is for certain one of the top ladies in skating, certainly stronger than fumie who has at least one world medal to her name. If she is fourth again I will scream!

She has no medal because she bombs at every worlds with the exception of 2004. In 2004-2005 season, she won 2 GP series, got her first Canadians title, had decent 3toe-3toe in her routine and then imploded at Worlds. I wouldn't be too surprised if she tanks again. There are a lot more reliable competitors in the field including Fumie Suguri, Carolina Kostner, Rachael Flatt, etc.

herios · Mar 23, 2009

dorispulaski said:
There is this twitchy little feeling out there that to be really good, skaters (and ice dancers in particular) must be changing the direction of the sport.
I don't know where that notion first came from, but I can certainly recall Peggy Fleming & Dick Button criticizing Elaine Zayak as not changing the direction of the sport. This was pretty funny, even at the time. You can't change the sport much more than to make TPTB 1. Decide to eliminate the toe walley as a separate jump. 2. Limit the number of the same triple jump in a program. Furthermore, before Elaine, a triple jump was not really required for the ladies. After Elaine, you really couldn't be taken seriously without at least one.

In ice dance, Pakhamova & Gorshkov and Torvill & Dean are always recognized as trendsetters. Some people included the Duchesnays and Bestemianova & Bukin. "Trendsetter" is treated as a higher level of excellence than just champion. Bev wants V&M to be trendsetters because she wants to assert they are on the T&D level, not the Navka Kostamarov level (for example). IMO, V&M have skated beautifully, but I am unaware of any "trends" that they have yet started.

Bev. Smith is just a journalist, not an ice dance specialist. There is no need to jump on her back, she could pretty much channelling here others ideas.
The issue here is V / M are not trend makers YET, but in some ice dance circles, they are considered as potentially capable of doing that in the future. Think about the fact that they are 22/20 years old right now, plenty of time ahead of them.
If you think of T/D at 1979 level, perhaps that is where Vir / Moir are sitting now. The big question is, would they be able to leap forward from here?

Mathman · Mar 23, 2009

I guess I am confused about what "trendsetting" means. You could be the best in the world, way out ahead of the pack, just by doing the same old, same old, but doing it better than anyone else. (?)

dorispulaski · Mar 23, 2009

Mathman, I'll admit to not knowing what it really means.

But from my point of view, a trend setter changes the direction of something.

Someone who does things better than everyone else, but in the time honored way, would be not be a trendsetter.

For example, Klimova and Ponomarenko were absolutely super, wonderful, best of a kind skaters. However, they were not trendsetters.

The Duchesnays were far less skilled than K&P, but they were trendsetters.

Ladskater · Mar 23, 2009

Mathman said:
^ I, too, wish that Ms. Smith had made clear just what "trend" she feels Virtue and Moir have set.

I did not read this article, but I think what Ms. Smith means is what Tracy Wilson said last season about V&M - "They put dance back in ice dance." Meaning that after Torvil and Dean left the scene, dance took a different direction. Many teams were focussing more on themes and lifts, rather than just the basics. V&M - at least last season did a very classic, smooth program with emphasis on ice dance steps rather than a lot of lifts. Also their youthfulness adds some freshness to their look. That's my opinion of course!!

skatingbc · Mar 23, 2009

Ladskater said:
I did not read this article, but I think what Ms. Smith means is what Tracy Wilson said last season about V&M - "They put dance back in ice dance." Meaning that after Torvil and Dean left the scene, dance took a different direction. Many teams were focussing more on themes and lifts, rather than just the basics. V&M - at least last season did a very classic, smooth program with emphasis on ice dance steps rather than a lot of lifts. Also their youthfulness adds some freshness to their look. That's my opinion of course!!

That's a good point. I thought their Valse Triste program put the dance back in ice dance as well as their Parapluies program.

herios · Mar 23, 2009

Ladskater said:
I did not read this article, but I think what Ms. Smith means is what Tracy Wilson said last season about V&M - "They put dance back in ice dance." Meaning that after Torvil and Dean left the scene, dance took a different direction. Many teams were focussing more on themes and lifts, rather than just the basics. V&M - at least last season did a very classic, smooth program with emphasis on ice dance steps rather than a lot of lifts. Also their youthfulness adds some freshness to their look. That's my opinion of course!!

I second this (Ladskater you must be canadian

)
Tracy has expressed that she thinks Vir / Moi could take dance back to it's roots which is "dance".
So this is an opinion of a pro (she could be subjective of course), but I have to say, I have never heard Tracy Wilson talking so upbeat about Bourne and Kraatz for example as she does about Vir / Moi. She sees something special in them.

skatingbc · Mar 23, 2009

herios said:
I second this (Ladskater you must be canadian)
Tracy has expressed that she thinks Vir / Moi could take dance back to it's roots which is "dance".
So this is an opinion of a pro (she could be subjective of course), but I have to say, I have never heard Tracy Wilson talking so upbeat about Bourne and Kraatz for example as she does about Vir / Moi. She sees something special in them.

The Eurosport team said that they (V/M) have taken ice dancing back to its roots - pure dance. They said this during V/M's free dance at the 07 Worlds. Those guys aren't biased whatsoever. I really think Tracy Wilson has a good point and I think she's a fantastic commentator.

shine · Mar 24, 2009

Ladskater said:
I did not read this article, but I think what Ms. Smith means is what Tracy Wilson said last season about V&M - "They put dance back in ice dance." Meaning that after Torvil and Dean left the scene, dance took a different direction. Many teams were focussing more on themes and lifts, rather than just the basics. V&M - at least last season did a very classic, smooth program with emphasis on ice dance steps rather than a lot of lifts. Also their youthfulness adds some freshness to their look. That's my opinion of course!!

I've never really understood that sentiment. After T/D, had there not been great teams like K/P, R/K, U/Z, G/P, K/O, A/P, all of which had been known for their outstanding basic skating IN ADDITION to the dancing and drama the presented on the ice? Sure many teams have been focussing on themes and lifts (such as D/L) than before, but I never felt the basics were being neglected. The top teams in every time period have always been the most outstanding in basics, until perhaps very recently.

Steadily improving Rochette a dark horse

herios

Buttercup

Mathman

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

mskater93

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

rosee

herios

fumie_fumie

herios

Mathman

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~

skatingbc

herios

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