Article about reinstating Qualifying Rounds | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Article about reinstating Qualifying Rounds

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
I think that the WC's should be more like the World Cup, any country can enter the process but not all make it to the final tournament.

Those who enjoy Indian or Egyptian or whatever skaters should seriously think about which will help those country's programs:

1. A trip to the world championships in which the skater has no hope whatsoever of making it into the LP?

2. Two or three trips to GP (or second tier) events where the skater is guaranteed the chance to skate in the SP _and_ the LP in front of international judges.

If I were the Argentinian federation 1 does have a certain mystique but on the other hand, in terms of developing a viable program I'd much take 2 over 1.

In other words I think that entries to the WC should be limited (somehow or other) to the top 36 in each discipline and that their should be more entries in the GP (and second tier) events specifically reserved for skaters from smaller programs.

As someone who's been called on to evaluate people for over 8 hours straight I can tell you from personal experience that human beings can't do a great job of that for so long. After hour 4 or 5 you get kind of punch drunk and your ability to evaluate is seriously impaired (especially those who are far better or worse than the norm) and there is _no_ way around that. Some of the question SP judging can probably be put down to judging fatigue.
 

Kimmie Fan

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 6, 2008
As someone who's been called on to evaluate people for over 8 hours straight I can tell you from personal experience that human beings can't do a great job of that for so long. After hour 4 or 5 you get kind of punch drunk and your ability to evaluate is seriously impaired (especially those who are far better or worse than the norm) and there is _no_ way around that. Some of the question SP judging can probably be put down to judging fatigue.
I don't buy the costs more money excuse. I'm sure Worlds make ton of money for ISU and they can afford it.
But your point about judge fatigue is probably valid.
I suppose we can't have the judges replaced during middle of session either.
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
I don't buy the costs more money excuse. I'm sure Worlds make ton of money for ISU and they can afford it.

ALAICR the ISU has followed penny-wise pound-foolish policies. One the arguments in (quite wrongl!) dumping figures was the idea that figures competitions were expensive. That's probably also a good part of the current drive to dump the CD (down to one, which is far too little).
 
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antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Well, yes, qualifications for the Grand Prix should be changed a bit. Every country should be able to send at least one skater to one Grand Prix event. Every country also automatically gets one entry to 4 Continents/Euros as well. That provides two chances a season for any country to get a skater to Worlds.

There would probably need to be more GPs and/or nobody gets to go twice, to fit all the skaters in. Also how do you determine which country gets to send more than one to the GPs?

If a skater is world-class they ARE going to get the necessary score at one of the competitions.

Not necessarily - even skaters who get two GPs IMO shouldn't be able to take the highest score out of the two otherwise it gives them an unfair advanatge over the other skaters. We know that skaters can have bad competitions so i don't think it's as cut and dry as that. It also takes something out of the GP series in and of itself if it's only function is as a qualifier for worlds.

A few of the lesser skaters might be "unfairly" left out because of relative scoring between events, but it's much more important for Worlds to actually showcase the best skaters in the World. Yukari Nakano, Akiko Suzuki, Johnny Weir, Alban Preaubert, Caroline Zhang, Ashley Wagner, and various other skaters absolutely should have been at Worlds this year. Limiting entries to a certain number per country needs to stop. It's such a backwards way of thinking.

I disagree - i think it's ridiculous enough that world championships can be decided by less a point - something which is completely meaningless within that same comeptition because of teh random selection. To use those scores across different competitions could cause (a) a real injustice and (b) perpetuates the myth that scores are comparable from different competitions.

Ant
 

MagicFairy

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 31, 2008
Okay, then include Africa and call it the 5CC. Or you allocate a few wildcard spots. Regardless of how it comes about, the point is, the number of competitors should be reduced to at least 36 for singles and 28 teams for pairs and dance, IMO.

NO!!!!!!!!!!!! This is "WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS" and not 5CC!!!!
I am so angry now!!!:mad::mad::mad:
 

enlight78

Medalist
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
There would probably need to be more GPs and/or nobody gets to go twice, to fit all the skaters in. Also how do you determine which country gets to send more than one to the GPs?

We would put 24 single skaters and 16 pairs/dance at each event we could give a max of 72 skaters two events. I dont think all skaters need 2 gps. I say give small feds one gp and a spot at 4cc or Euros.
If we were going to start this next year.I would use a season average(not best) list and give the top 36 skaters two gps. And then give 36 differenet feds (who doesn't have skater that automatically qualified) 2 gps for one skater, or one gp for two skaters.


I disagree - i think it's ridiculous enough that world championships can be decided by less a point - something which is completely meaningless within that same comeptition because of teh random selection. To use those scores across different competitions could cause (a) a real injustice and (b) perpetuates the myth that scores are comparable from different competitions.

Ant

I think it depends on if you say the top 36 season best go to worlds vs top 36 season average go to worlds vs All females skaters who broke 140 and all male skaters who broke 180 qualify for worlds.
My main problem is the major difference in skill level.
 
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Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
I agree with having the top ranked 12 skaters get in automatically and the rest having to qualify for the additional 24 spots. Even though CoP in non-cooperative, I think it is still too much for the judges to stay attentive through 8 hours of judging. Also, while many skaters are indeed proud to represent their countries, the trip to the Worlds is often more for the benefit of the dignitaries involved (such is the case of the Azeri federation, for instance).
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
first and foremost, one has to realize that skaters from China, France, Japan, Russia and the US do not qualify for Competitions because there are rules that stipulate the number of skaters permitted from one country. So, therefore there are some skaters left behind who could easily be among the top 10 to finish in a competition. Yukari Nakano immediately comes to mind.

We then face the problem of what exactly is the purpose of a competition?

Is it to find the champion and the two who almost make champion? or

Is it important that every country be permitted to send at least one skater regardless of talent?

Is it ethical to prevent skaters from competing because of the entry limitations per country?

I do not want to prevent skaters from competing, but as a sports fan, I am only inerested in who is the best skater or best team on their particular day at a particular competition.
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Joe, this gets us, I think, to the very heart of the ISU problems. ISU deals with federations, not skaters. Federations have their own interests that have very little to do with the interests of the sport; however, they are the ones who finance sport development, so they naturally have a say. To me, the current system of figuring out how many skaters each country can send isn't too bright - I mean, even if Elene medals at Worlds, Georgia still won't automatically produce another elite skater! I say - have the top 12 ranked skaters all go even if they are all from the same country, and then allow each country to send two skaters to qualifying round to compete for the other 24 spots.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
There would probably need to be more GPs and/or nobody gets to go twice, to fit all the skaters in. Also how do you determine which country gets to send more than one to the GPs?

Why would there need to be more GPs? Just have more skaters per event.

Not necessarily - even skaters who get two GPs IMO shouldn't be able to take the highest score out of the two otherwise it gives them an unfair advanatge over the other skaters. We know that skaters can have bad competitions so i don't think it's as cut and dry as that. It also takes something out of the GP series in and of itself if it's only function is as a qualifier for worlds.

It doesn't give them an unfair advantage, any top skater should get 2 Grand Prix assignments. The GP has always been a warm up for the later events in the season. It doesn't take anything out of the GP to have it also serve as a qualifier for Worlds. Skaters still have incentive to skate the best they can in order to achieve the best World standing and receive the money bonus.

I disagree - i think it's ridiculous enough that world championships can be decided by less a point - something which is completely meaningless within that same comeptition because of teh random selection. To use those scores across different competitions could cause (a) a real injustice and (b) perpetuates the myth that scores are comparable from different competitions.

Random selection of scores is an entirely different tangent (but it should, of course, be stopped and judges' scores should be visible).

As for the injustice part - how so? The Worlds should be about bringing the best skaters in the world together to compete. It doesn't matter what judging panel you get at a qualifying event. If you are a top skater you WILL qualify, somewhere. They can give the top 10 finishers from recent World Championships automatic byes to that year's Worlds as well in order to account for injuries that may have taken people out for the entire season leading up to Worlds.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Joe, this gets us, I think, to the very heart of the ISU problems. ISU deals with federations, not skaters. Federations have their own interests that have very little to do with the interests of the sport; however, they are the ones who finance sport development, so they naturally have a say. To me, the current system of figuring out how many skaters each country can send isn't too bright - I mean, even if Elene medals at Worlds, Georgia still won't automatically produce another elite skater! I say - have the top 12 ranked skaters all go even if they are all from the same country, and then allow each country to send two skaters to qualifying round to compete for the other 24 spots.
Ptichka - Definitely, it seems the Feds do not have full interest in the sport However, they do want to have control over the administration of it. More popular sports events also have the same problems, but there is an interest in resolving matters affecting the sports. The ISU should not allow any particular interests of Feds to interfere with the overall workings of the Sport but take a stand on what is good for the sport, and override any special interests of any particular country

We are looking for a champion and 2 runner ups, but we have 50 entries to go through. So time consuming and the time is against the skaters as well. The ISU should plan a separate competition a week before the major one for all the skaters who have not reached the ISU rankings. Just a thought.
 

margiemo

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 29, 2006
There are some skaters from the US and Canada represent other countries.These skaters would never make it nationally let alone internationally but represent the countries of their parents birth.These skaters continue to train in the us and canada with good coaches and ample icetime.Some do :rofl:very well and others attend comps such as 4 continents,euros and worlds.for the thrill of competing on the world stage
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Joe, this gets us, I think, to the very heart of the ISU problems. ISU deals with federations, not skaters. Federations have their own interests that have very little to do with the interests of the sport; however, they are the ones who finance sport development, so they naturally have a say. To me, the current system of figuring out how many skaters each country can send isn't too bright - I mean, even if Elene medals at Worlds, Georgia still won't automatically produce another elite skater! I say - have the top 12 ranked skaters all go even if they are all from the same country, and then allow each country to send two skaters to qualifying round to compete for the other 24 spots.

I couldn't agree with your post more Ptichka :clap:

Why would there need to be more GPs? Just have more skaters per event.

Where's the slap head smilie when you need it - of course you could just add more skaters to the line up! Though I do wonder if the increase in cost of increasing the numbers would be something that would make it prohibitively expensive? Competitions could end up running for a week rather than just the few days they currently stand at?

It doesn't give them an unfair advantage, any top skater should get 2 Grand Prix assignments. The GP has always been a warm up for the later events in the season. It doesn't take anything out of the GP to have it also serve as a qualifier for Worlds. Skaters still have incentive to skate the best they can in order to achieve the best World standing and receive the money bonus.

It depends who does get the two GPs though because we have many inconsistent skaters who can skate one great competition and bomb the next, if their highest score isused they do have an advantage over a lesser skater skating only one GP. Would more qualify to the GPF? If they do, does the GPF become more like worlds, or in fact more important since countries aren't limited by numbers?



Random selection of scores is an entirely different tangent (but it should, of course, be stopped and judges' scores should be visible).

While it is a different issue - it is still very valid when you are talking abtou comparing scores from different competitions - it is another reason as to why you should not do it.

As for the injustice part - how so? The Worlds should be about bringing the best skaters in the world together to compete. It doesn't matter what judging panel you get at a qualifying event. If you are a top skater you WILL qualify, somewhere. They can give the top 10 finishers from recent World Championships automatic byes to that year's Worlds as well in order to account for injuries that may have taken people out for the entire season leading up to Worlds.

When I said it would be an injustice i was referring to comparing scores from different competitions. E.g. senior B competitions seem to be more generously scored. We're all in agreement that national scoring cannot be compared because of the inflated marks. 4CCs is fast becoming a comeptition notorious for its overmarking - much more so than Europeans. That is why there would be injustices in using scores from those competitions as any kind of qualifier.

Ant
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
The ISU should plan a separate competition a week before the major one for all the skaters who have not reached the ISU rankings. Just a thought.
I think having a qualifying competition just before Worlds is far cheaper - having a separate competition is too much overhead, and the skaters who made would then have to fly to whatever the Worlds location is.

BTW, let's look at how Olympics are handled. There is a hard limit - 30 men, 30 singles, 20 pairs, 24 ice dancing teams. Most countries qualify, of course, through 2009 Worls. However, those countries that have not qualified to send even 1 skater to the Olympics don't get to send 1 automatically, but have to qualify through Nebelhorn Trophy. Article [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skating_at_the_2010_Winter_Olympics_-_Qualification] specifies that for 2010, Nebelhorn will qualify 6 ladies, 6 men, 4 pairs, and 5 ice dancing teams. Something similar could be used for Worlds.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Where's the slap head smilie when you need it - of course you could just add more skaters to the line up! Though I do wonder if the increase in cost of increasing the numbers would be something that would make it prohibitively expensive? Competitions could end up running for a week rather than just the few days they currently stand at?

The senior B competitions often have twice or even three times as many singles competitors as the Grand Prixs and don't seem to need more days. Of course, often they don't have any pairs or dance, or only one or the other, and smaller fields in those disciplines.

It might help to hold the events in venues where a separate practice rink is available, so the competition itself could start earlier in the day.

You'd get fewer local people buying tickets for daytime events on Thursdays and Fridays though. Not sure how much income GP events get from local ticket sales anyway though.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I think having a qualifying competition just before Worlds is far cheaper - having a separate competition is too much overhead, and the skaters who made would then have to fly to whatever the Worlds location is.
I didn't want to get into the finances of it, but judging and watching 60 Ladies to come up with 24 for the major events which is seeking only 1 winner and 2 runner ups, is not an easy chore for competitors, coaches and fans.

I did not mean a separate competition, but one of the same venue; just earlier in the week with limited participants.

BTW, let's look at how Olympics are handled. There is a hard limit - 30 men, 30 singles, 20 pairs, 24 ice dancing teams. Most countries qualify, of course, through 2009 Worls. However, those countries that have not qualified to send even 1 skater to the Olympics don't get to send 1 automatically, but have to qualify through Nebelhorn Trophy. Article [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skating_at_the_2010_Winter_Olympics_-_Qualification] specifies that for 2010, Nebelhorn will qualify 6 ladies, 6 men, 4 pairs, and 5 ice dancing teams. Something similar could be used for Worlds.
I could buy this. The first 15 skaters at Euros, and the first 15 skaters at 4CC, would make an even 30 for Worlds The ISU could continue with the Limitation of 3 per country so if one country had 4or more within the qualifying results, the excess would be replaced by the next in line. Of course, there would no more be automatics based on previous years results.
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
What amazes me* is how on boards like this posters can immediately come up with any number of workable propositions (I like some better than others but the logic behind most of them is clear) while the ISU will take much, much longer and when they do come up with a course of action it will be incredibly stupid and unfair.


*and shouldn't since I know full well how bureacracies work and how decisions get made in big organizations
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
I think the main reason is that ISU operates at what's better for the federations, not for the sport or individual skaters. In general, boards take a a different view ;)
 
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