Article about reinstating Qualifying Rounds

[Ptichka]

Joe, this gets us, I think, to the very heart of the ISU problems. ISU deals with federations, not skaters. Federations have their own interests that have very little to do with the interests of the sport; however, they are the ones who finance sport development, so they naturally have a say. To me, the current system of figuring out how many skaters each country can send isn't too bright - I mean, even if Elene medals at Worlds, Georgia still won't automatically produce another elite skater! I say - have the top 12 ranked skaters all go even if they are all from the same country, and then allow each country to send two skaters to qualifying round to compete for the other 24 spots.

[Blades of Passion]

There would probably need to be more GPs and/or nobody gets to go twice, to fit all the skaters in. Also how do you determine which country gets to send more than one to the GPs?

Why would there need to be more GPs? Just have more skaters per event.

Not necessarily - even skaters who get two GPs IMO shouldn't be able to take the highest score out of the two otherwise it gives them an unfair advanatge over the other skaters. We know that skaters can have bad competitions so i don't think it's as cut and dry as that. It also takes something out of the GP series in and of itself if it's only function is as a qualifier for worlds.

It doesn't give them an unfair advantage, any top skater should get 2 Grand Prix assignments. The GP has always been a warm up for the later events in the season. It doesn't take anything out of the GP to have it also serve as a qualifier for Worlds. Skaters still have incentive to skate the best they can in order to achieve the best World standing and receive the money bonus.

I disagree - i think it's ridiculous enough that world championships can be decided by less a point - something which is completely meaningless within that same comeptition because of teh random selection. To use those scores across different competitions could cause (a) a real injustice and (b) perpetuates the myth that scores are comparable from different competitions.

Random selection of scores is an entirely different tangent (but it should, of course, be stopped and judges' scores should be visible).

As for the injustice part - how so? The Worlds should be about bringing the best skaters in the world together to compete. It doesn't matter what judging panel you get at a qualifying event. If you are a top skater you WILL qualify, somewhere. They can give the top 10 finishers from recent World Championships automatic byes to that year's Worlds as well in order to account for injuries that may have taken people out for the entire season leading up to Worlds.

[Joesitz]

Joe, this gets us, I think, to the very heart of the ISU problems. ISU deals with federations, not skaters. Federations have their own interests that have very little to do with the interests of the sport; however, they are the ones who finance sport development, so they naturally have a say. To me, the current system of figuring out how many skaters each country can send isn't too bright - I mean, even if Elene medals at Worlds, Georgia still won't automatically produce another elite skater! I say - have the top 12 ranked skaters all go even if they are all from the same country, and then allow each country to send two skaters to qualifying round to compete for the other 24 spots.

Ptichka - Definitely, it seems the Feds do not have full interest in the sport However, they do want to have control over the administration of it. More popular sports events also have the same problems, but there is an interest in resolving matters affecting the sports. The ISU should not allow any particular interests of Feds to interfere with the overall workings of the Sport but take a stand on what is good for the sport, and override any special interests of any particular country

We are looking for a champion and 2 runner ups, but we have 50 entries to go through. So time consuming and the time is against the skaters as well. The ISU should plan a separate competition a week before the major one for all the skaters who have not reached the ISU rankings. Just a thought.

[margiemo]

There are some skaters from the US and Canada represent other countries.These skaters would never make it nationally let alone internationally but represent the countries of their parents birth.These skaters continue to train in the us and canada with good coaches and ample icetime.Some do very well and others attend comps such as 4 continents,euros and worlds.for the thrill of competing on the world stage

[antmanb]

Joe, this gets us, I think, to the very heart of the ISU problems. ISU deals with federations, not skaters. Federations have their own interests that have very little to do with the interests of the sport; however, they are the ones who finance sport development, so they naturally have a say. To me, the current system of figuring out how many skaters each country can send isn't too bright - I mean, even if Elene medals at Worlds, Georgia still won't automatically produce another elite skater! I say - have the top 12 ranked skaters all go even if they are all from the same country, and then allow each country to send two skaters to qualifying round to compete for the other 24 spots.

I couldn't agree with your post more Ptichka

Why would there need to be more GPs? Just have more skaters per event.

Where's the slap head smilie when you need it - of course you could just add more skaters to the line up! Though I do wonder if the increase in cost of increasing the numbers would be something that would make it prohibitively expensive? Competitions could end up running for a week rather than just the few days they currently stand at?

It doesn't give them an unfair advantage, any top skater should get 2 Grand Prix assignments. The GP has always been a warm up for the later events in the season. It doesn't take anything out of the GP to have it also serve as a qualifier for Worlds. Skaters still have incentive to skate the best they can in order to achieve the best World standing and receive the money bonus.

It depends who does get the two GPs though because we have many inconsistent skaters who can skate one great competition and bomb the next, if their highest score isused they do have an advantage over a lesser skater skating only one GP. Would more qualify to the GPF? If they do, does the GPF become more like worlds, or in fact more important since countries aren't limited by numbers?

Random selection of scores is an entirely different tangent (but it should, of course, be stopped and judges' scores should be visible).

While it is a different issue - it is still very valid when you are talking abtou comparing scores from different competitions - it is another reason as to why you should not do it.

As for the injustice part - how so? The Worlds should be about bringing the best skaters in the world together to compete. It doesn't matter what judging panel you get at a qualifying event. If you are a top skater you WILL qualify, somewhere. They can give the top 10 finishers from recent World Championships automatic byes to that year's Worlds as well in order to account for injuries that may have taken people out for the entire season leading up to Worlds.

When I said it would be an injustice i was referring to comparing scores from different competitions. E.g. senior B competitions seem to be more generously scored. We're all in agreement that national scoring cannot be compared because of the inflated marks. 4CCs is fast becoming a comeptition notorious for its overmarking - much more so than Europeans. That is why there would be injustices in using scores from those competitions as any kind of qualifier.

Ant

[Ptichka]

The ISU should plan a separate competition a week before the major one for all the skaters who have not reached the ISU rankings. Just a thought.

I think having a qualifying competition just before Worlds is far cheaper - having a separate competition is too much overhead, and the skaters who made would then have to fly to whatever the Worlds location is.

BTW, let's look at how Olympics are handled. There is a hard limit - 30 men, 30 singles, 20 pairs, 24 ice dancing teams. Most countries qualify, of course, through 2009 Worls. However, those countries that have not qualified to send even 1 skater to the Olympics don't get to send 1 automatically, but have to qualify through Nebelhorn Trophy. Article [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_...Qualification] specifies that for 2010, Nebelhorn will qualify 6 ladies, 6 men, 4 pairs, and 5 ice dancing teams. Something similar could be used for Worlds.

[gkelly]

Where's the slap head smilie when you need it - of course you could just add more skaters to the line up! Though I do wonder if the increase in cost of increasing the numbers would be something that would make it prohibitively expensive? Competitions could end up running for a week rather than just the few days they currently stand at?

The senior B competitions often have twice or even three times as many singles competitors as the Grand Prixs and don't seem to need more days. Of course, often they don't have any pairs or dance, or only one or the other, and smaller fields in those disciplines.

It might help to hold the events in venues where a separate practice rink is available, so the competition itself could start earlier in the day.

You'd get fewer local people buying tickets for daytime events on Thursdays and Fridays though. Not sure how much income GP events get from local ticket sales anyway though.

[Joesitz]

I think having a qualifying competition just before Worlds is far cheaper - having a separate competition is too much overhead, and the skaters who made would then have to fly to whatever the Worlds location is.

I didn't want to get into the finances of it, but judging and watching 60 Ladies to come up with 24 for the major events which is seeking only 1 winner and 2 runner ups, is not an easy chore for competitors, coaches and fans.

I did not mean a separate competition, but one of the same venue; just earlier in the week with limited participants.

BTW, let's look at how Olympics are handled. There is a hard limit - 30 men, 30 singles, 20 pairs, 24 ice dancing teams. Most countries qualify, of course, through 2009 Worls. However, those countries that have not qualified to send even 1 skater to the Olympics don't get to send 1 automatically, but have to qualify through Nebelhorn Trophy. Article [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_...Qualification] specifies that for 2010, Nebelhorn will qualify 6 ladies, 6 men, 4 pairs, and 5 ice dancing teams. Something similar could be used for Worlds.

I could buy this. The first 15 skaters at Euros, and the first 15 skaters at 4CC, would make an even 30 for Worlds The ISU could continue with the Limitation of 3 per country so if one country had 4or more within the qualifying results, the excess would be replaced by the next in line. Of course, there would no more be automatics based on previous years results.

[Mafke]

What amazes me* is how on boards like this posters can immediately come up with any number of workable propositions (I like some better than others but the logic behind most of them is clear) while the ISU will take much, much longer and when they do come up with a course of action it will be incredibly stupid and unfair.


*and shouldn't since I know full well how bureacracies work and how decisions get made in big organizations

[Ptichka]

I think the main reason is that ISU operates at what's better for the federations, not for the sport or individual skaters. In general, boards take a a different view

[Blades of Passion]

When I said it would be an injustice i was referring to comparing scores from different competitions. E.g. senior B competitions seem to be more generously scored. We're all in agreement that national scoring cannot be compared because of the inflated marks. 4CCs is fast becoming a comeptition notorious for its overmarking - much more so than Europeans. That is why there would be injustices in using scores from those competitions as any kind of qualifier.

Although I see your point, I still don't feel it is an injustice. What's most important is getting the best skaters in the World to actually compete at Worlds. If some of the second-tier skaters from 4CC make it in over some of the second-tier skaters from Euros because of differences in judging, oh well.

It depends who does get the two GPs though because we have many inconsistent skaters who can skate one great competition and bomb the next, if their highest score isused they do have an advantage over a lesser skater skating only one GP. Would more qualify to the GPF? If they do, does the GPF become more like worlds, or in fact more important since countries aren't limited by numbers?

Well, I mean, think about what you just said - "they have an advantage over a lesser skater". If you are a better skater than someone else, then you by definition have an advantage over them. If someone is only good enough to get 1 GP slot (in the GP as I envision it), then they almost surely aren't a good enough skater to go to Worlds. If a skater is able to get a high enough score to qualify for Worlds at just one competition, then they clearly have the talent. Inconsistency is sorta irrelevant.

I don't think the GPF should be changed, btw.