I think what Blades of Passion is trying to say is that yes, an underrotated triple is an erroneous jump and negative GOEs should definitely be applied. The problem lies in the harshness of the penalty--does it make sense that an UR triple merits the penalty that it has now, which makes it worth less than a double?Originally Posted by quikrush
And the nature of COP awards 'attempts' to land things, not just UR jumps anyways. Even a fall will get you some points.
Big flaw. One should NOT get any points for a failed attempt (that results in a fall or a bad stumble). I think one should at least get some points for a UR triple, less than a fully rotated one but more than a double.And the nature of COP awards 'attempts' to land things, not just UR jumps anyways. Even a fall will get you some points.
Wasn't the reasoning for giving credit to a fall was that, take off is what really matters, landing is based more on luck?
I agree, a UR triple should be worth more than a double--the double penalty is too harsh in my opinion.
Does a fully rotated triple with a fall/hand-down/step-out get more points than a UR triple that looks clean?
FWIW, I don't think you've insulted anybody, either. Seems like some have Joannie on a pedestal, and would foam at the mouth should she be brought back down to earth, however slightly.
Personally, I was bored to tears by her LP and I find her so-called 'artistry' overly affected. Her movements don't seem natural to me at all. I don't know enough about technique to say I'm bothered by hers, but the fact that her jump layout is not even remotely on the same level of difficulty as Mao or Yu-Na's doesn't make me respect her competitive skills any more.
Joannie has always been a 'B' skater in terms of results up until this season. To me, the reason for the sudden change is fairly obvious.
An overrotated jump isn't erroneous, it just means that your landing will probably be less secure. Also, an underrotated triple = more rotation than an overrotated double.
I find this to be a bad analogy because it's a completely different sport. A good comparison would be diving. In diving you receive a base score for the dive and then a grade for your execution. If you do a complex dive and end it in a belly flop (OUCH) and make a huge splash, the dive isn't worth 0 points. It's just worth a LOT less.
An attempt at a jump should be worth something (not much, of course, if it's a terrible attempt) because the act of actually doing the rotations shows a skill. Being able to rotate a 3Lutz but never being able to land it at least shows more proficiency with that jump than someone who can't rotate it at all. Of course, you'll never want to do it in competition if you can never land it.
Underrotating a jump is a moderate, not huge, error. The penalty should be about the same as any other given error on a jump that merits -2 GOE. Although, for underrotations it should be deducted from the base value of the jump (because if you make other mistakes on the jump, like falling, it needs to be deducted via GOE).
ISU is just really lazy about fixing this stuff. They don't want to be bothered to, say, make a new table of values for underrotated jumps. Even though it's quite easy! All you have to do is average two values together (and then round down). For example, a Double Lutz is worth 1.9 points and a Triple Lutz is worth 6 points. Average those together and round down and, VIOLA!, an underrotated Triple Lutz is worth 3.9 points.
I wouldn't say that, but I do think she has been hit and miss (and never "amazing"). She deservedly got 5th place at the 2006 Olympics and 2008 Worlds, which is very respectable. Then there is also her performance at 2005 Canadian Nationals, which was very good and would have placed top 3 at most any World Championship.
Last edited by Blades of Passion; 03-31-2009 at 04:48 AM.
That's the primary problem, the rest is the symptom.
Except that Single, Double and Triple jump scores don't follow a linear point progression, so it doesn't make sense to use a linear average to score between them. Geometric mean would put it at 3.376, that would be a little better but ... the other problem is the -GOE attached to it as well.
The whole CoP system is enslaved by wrong-headed math and faulty reasoning. Maybe if, as you mention, they actually bothered making the necessary changes on a regular basis, CoP could actually progress toward something that starts to almost make sense. But at this rate, I don't think it will in our lifetime.
The problem I have with not giving some value to "failed attempts" is that it fails to consider the two other important aspects of a jump - the takeoff and air position.
I can't believe that we are still debating the UR issue. I thought they would have decreased the penalty for UR jumps after Yukari lost a medal with a seemingly clean skate, and deserving of at least a silver. Clearly, only changes are made when Scott and Sandra get indignant about he wuzrobbing of some American or Canadian skater.
True, but I think it's suitable in this case. I did forget to mention that they would also have to create new GOE values for this new table of values, but that isn't hard either. Again...laziness (or lack of insight, take your pick).
Are you saying that a triple jump that is 2 2/3 rotated should be able to receive positive GOE?
Czisny did a beautiful Gala performance which would have gotten her in the last group of skaters. Unfortunately, it was not scoreable.
Ms Flatt came out just behind the top 4 skaters in the World. She's good underfire and I look forward to seeing her 3A next year along with the 3x3s.
^Another fanbot is born!
That is horrible. Why are they kicking her when she's already down? Didn't they treat Miki the same way before? So are they suddenly in love with Miki again because she won bronze?(sorry for speaking in questions only)
That's awful! But then again, Alissa Czisny's not exactly having an easy time as well...
I wonder though, if they're harder on her this time because Yuna won. I've noticed that every time JPN and KOR compete against one another in sporting events, there always seems to be loads of political overtones!!!
I just want to say that foul balls aren't completely worthless. Pitch count matters for a lot in baseball, and every extra pitch you make the pitcher throw is a good thing
i agree that Yuna's score was bit inflated. but i think PCS is really depending on the mood of the people at the moment. the crowd was just crazy at that night and the commentors were quite excited and i think that affected PCS. my friends watched her performance live they said it was breath taking. they said you can't compare her to anybody. she simply dominated everybody in the stadium. considering that, i think PCS is really depending on the mood of the crowd. also judges mark skaters comparing with others, right? so if somebody is just dominating, they'll give more marks than others. still, PCS is really hard to define i think... however, currently there's no female skater who can possibly beat Yuna. her talent is so rare both techinically and artistically.
for the other commant. i was impressed with Miki's performance. i think she did bettter than Mao. Miki didn't do very well during Grand Prix but at the World 2009, i really enjoyed her performance
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