Ladies LP | Page 61 | Golden Skate

Ladies LP

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
GoE friendly = reading the bullets of what gets positive GoEs and doing what you have to in order to maximize that.

For Spirals:
Catch foot = feature
Speed = GoE
Edging = GoE
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Can anyone explain what is GoE friendly?

I would assume that "GOE Friendly" means a spiral sequence that attracts high GOE. For a reminder of that (found here: http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=934)

FOR + 1 : 1 or 2 bullets FOR + 2 : 3 or 4 bullets FOR + 3 : 5 or 6 bullets:

FOR SPIRAL SEQUENCE:

1. good flow, energy and execution
2. good speed during sequence
3. good body line
4. highlights the character of the program
5. superior flexibility
6. creativity and originality

Flexibility means there is no struggle to get the leg in its proper position in a ballet-like fashion. Ballet-like fashion includes turned out knee and pointed toe.

Superior flexibility does appear in the positive GOE bullets, however, it doesn't mention ballet anywhere, i would assume it means flexibility in it's true definition of easily bent or pliable. Arguably though this crosses over in to the terriotry of features for levels since some of the levels refer to attaining 180 split position and foot higher than head with or without the assist of an arm.

Edging which is more about skating should be pronounced. Changes of edges should be as they occur in school figures. No wobbling or bobbling.

Again I agree that to my mind edging shoudl be the most important thing but int eh absence of an express mention I think it does play a part in speed, flow, energy and execution, but it's strange that it isn't mentioned anywhere specifically. The change of edge is dealt with in the rules for the levels - i forget the exact wording but the change needs to be steady and within a certain distance in order to qualify for the higher level.

Catch foot spirals are a waste of time, imo, since they bring nothing to the program except points for doing so little. But it is the one position one doesn't have to worry about being ballet-like.

I agree that they are a waste of time but in order to get those higher level the skaters end up having to do them, if they do them then they also tick one of the bullets off for positive GOE. So it seems there's a double bonus to having catch foot spirals in your programs.

None of the current crop of ladies comes anywheres near Kwan's change of edge spiral.

Very much agreed!

Ant
 

steyn

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Can anyone explain what is GoE friendly?

Flexibility means there is no struggle to get the leg in its proper position in a ballet-like fashion. Ballet-like fashion includes turned out knee and pointed toe.

Edging which is more about skating should be pronounced. Changes of edges should be as they occur in school figures. No wobbling or bobbling.

Catch foot spirals are a waste of time, imo, since they bring nothing to the program except points for doing so little. But it is the one position one doesn't have to worry about being ballet-like.

None of the current crop of ladies comes anywheres near Kwan's change of edge spiral.

Guidelines for marking GOE

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=981

To establish the starting GOE Judges must take into consideration the bullets for each element. It’s up to a Judge to decide on the number of bullets for any upgrade, but general recommendations are as follows:

FOR + 1 : 1 or 2 bullets FOR + 2 : 3 or 4 bullets FOR + 3 : 5 or 6 bullets

Spiral Sequences
1. good flow, energy and execution
2. good speed during sequence
3. good body line
4. highlights the character of the program
5. superior flexibility
6. creativity and originality

Yu-Na's spiral got +1 from three judges and +2 from six judges. According to this guideline, probably all judges checked bullet 1 and/or 2. Then six judges additionally checked bullet 4 and/or 6 to give +2.

As seen in this guideline, flexibility is just one of 6 bullets and high goe cannot be awarded in the current judging system. Even with the help of good body line, you can only get +1. So you really need good speed or something else to get goe higher that +1.

Usually TV screen emphasizes flexibility and body line because TV camera follows the skater in close-up mode without showing the entire rink. Then flexibility and body line would immediately determine the first impression on the spiral and the other aspects cannot be appreciated well.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
steyn said:
According to the protocol she got three +1's and six +2's for her spiral. In the current system two judges are randomly ignored and, among the rest, the lowest and the highest goes are also not counted. To get +2 goe, three +1's should not be counted, which is possible only when two +1's are from those randomly ignored judges.

The "randomly ignored judges" provision of the IJS makes evryone connected with the sport look like an idiot.

"Are you a figure skating judge?"

"No, I just sit there with my finger up my nose."

Antman said:
Spiral Sequences
1. good flow, energy and execution
2. good speed during sequence
3. good body line
4. highlights the character of the program
5. superior flexibility
6. creativity and originality

Thanks for the information, Antman.

steyn said:
According to this guideline, probably all judges checked bullet 1 and/or 2. Then six judges additionally checked bullet 4 and/or 6 to give +2.

4. Did Kim's spiral highlight the character of the program any more than anyone else's did?

6. Was Kim's spiral sequence especially creative or original?
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I would assume that "GOE Friendly" means a spiral sequence that attracts high GOE. For a reminder of that (found here: http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=934)
I assumed it was a new cliche because I was thinking about Goe Unfriendly. :chorus:

Superior flexibility does appear in the positive GOE bullets, however, it doesn't mention ballet anywhere, i would assume it means flexibility in it's true definition of easily bent or pliable. Arguably though this crosses over in to the terriotry of features for levels since some of the levels refer to attaining 180 split position and foot higher than head with or without the assist of an arm.
As most posters know, I am not Ballet-Friendly to figure skating. I use the term ballet-like to get a meaning across. Figure Skating is a form of dance be it Tap, Acrobatics, Modern, Folk whatever. IMO, it should be treated as a dance form.

Again I agree that to my mind edging shoudl be the most important thing but in the absence of an express mention I think it does play a part in speed, flow, energy and execution, but it's strange that it isn't mentioned anywhere specifically. The change of edge is dealt with in the rules for the levels - i forget the exact wording but the change needs to be steady and within a certain distance in order to qualify for the higher level.
I guess we have to assume edging is covered in silence in the bullets. It would be nice to see it somewhere. I mean, at least it is the portion of figure skating that is on the ice. btw, Energy and Execution are measureable? Aren't they in the mind of the beholder?

Of course I am prejudiced about Spirals. I don't see them as a big element. To me, they may be slightly more difficult that a Spread Eagle or an Inna Bauer - and if they are not done perfectly they are not beautiful. they are, imo a Move-In-The-Field
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
I guess we have to assume edging is covered in silence in the bullets. It would be nice to see it somewhere. I mean, at least it is the portion of figure skating that is on the ice. btw, Energy and Execution are measureable? Aren't they in the mind of the beholder?[/U][/I]

Yes, GOE is subjective on the positive side for some bullets. It's the same for jumps or spins - what's your definition of a spin that is fast? It's probably different than my definition of a spin that is fast.

Edging is covered in the bullets just not explicitly - a spiral sequence will not have good flow WITHOUT good edging. If the edges are wobbly, the spiral slows down. Then it will not have good energy or execution either.
 

steyn

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
4. Did Kim's spiral highlight the character of the program any more than anyone else's did?

6. Was Kim's spiral sequence especially creative or original?

I don't know the judges' standard so I don't have any definite answer to the questions. But my guess is as follows. IF the program is well choreographed so that the effect of spiral can highlight the performance AND IF most of the elements before the spiral are peformed flawlessly, AND IF the spiral itself satisfies at least one or two bullets in the GOE guideline (e.g., good speed, good flexibility etc), then I would say it satisfies the condition 4 almost automatically. In other words, the evaluation of this bullet will depend on the choreography and the performance of other elements; otherwise judges would not feel that the spiral highlights the character of the program.

As for the condition 6, I think all the basic spiral positions have already been developed by many great skaters, so you cannot really invent brand new positions thesedays. Then it is reasonable to guess that the creativity or originality here does not mean some entirely new way of spiral. (Otherwise it would be left unchecked for almost all peformances and pretty much useless.) If there are some small variations they may be counted depending on judges. I don't know but I heard from some guys that small changes such as looking upward by rotating head during the spiral or giving some variations to free hands may be counted here. But personally I am not sure about this.

In Yu-Na's LP at Worlds, I guess majority of the judges felt condition 4 was satisfied. Thinking along this line is somewhat similar to your previous post that the "momentum" of SP affects GOEs and PCs in LP, although, in my opinion, it should have more to do with the momentum within LP up to the point that the spiral is excuted.
 

AwesomeIce

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Just a quick question:
Could someone please explain to me why Kim's spiral sequence got the highest GOE marks of the night? It is by no means the best spiral I don't think (lacks extension, and her free leg foot looks like a club). Maybe someone could enlighten me?

Good question. While she fulfills the requirements for the spiral sequence, hers looks really ugly. Give her the level 4, but she should get negative GOE because it just looks BAD. She definitely got bonus GOE points just for being Yu-Na.
 

hikki

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Country
Japan
> 4. highlights the character of the program

This reminds me of Michelle Kwan's SP spiral in the '05 season. At Nationals, the spiral hit the climax of the music so well it woudl've ticked this feature for sure (had USFSA implemented the new scoring system). Later at Worlds, ironically because she had to make her combo spin (the element before her spiral) longer to get a higher level, her spiral missed the climax and didn't have quite the same effect. I wonder if the judges took notice. Amongst the top 6 skaters (who except Kostner got Level 3) Michelle received the highest GOE anyway.


Edging is covered in the bullets just not explicitly - a spiral sequence will not have good flow WITHOUT good edging. If the edges are wobbly, the spiral slows down. Then it will not have good energy or execution either.

This makes a lot of sense. Do you reckon Mao's spirals tend to be slow because of this?

I wish we were seeing more original spirals like Shizuka in the Torino season. I was totally amazed by her season debut(it was called a lower level for pretty much being too long). Then later in the season she surpirsed me with the new "Y hands-off" version at Nationals!
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Skating in the 4th Position is not exactly easy in itself and to bend your body in a layback makes it all the more difficult. That is the Iina Bauer! The Spiral by comparison is straightforward and much easier even with the free leg on high.

If it's flexibility you want, then the Iina Bauer has it over the Spiral. Why make such an issue with the Spiral? A Cantilever lay back is probably the most difficult of the MIF.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
If it's flexibility you want, then the Iina Bauer has it over the Spiral. Why make such an issue with the Spiral? A Cantilever lay back is probably the most difficult of the MIF.

What i son't unserstand is how an Ina Bauer is even possible. It looks like one blade is line up front to back and the trailing blade is sideways, scraping along the ice. But that can't be right, because then you would come to a dead stop.

About the cantilever, for some reason this move has been relegated to comic relief. The best at it (sorry, Ilia Kulik :) ) were Frick and Frack.

I think the reason the spiral is favored is just that it looks so pretty, never mind whether it is difficult or not.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
What i son't unserstand is how an Ina Bauer is even possible. It looks like one blade is line up front to back and the trailing blade is sideways, scraping along the ice. But that can't be right, because then you would come to a dead stop.
The 4th position is one foot (or skate) faces East and the other faces West. Much of the time it is used as a preparation for a pirouette in Dance and Ina Bauer in Figure Skating.

About the cantilever, for some reason this move has been relegated to comic relief. The best at it (sorry, Ilia Kulik :) ) were Frick and Frack.
That's how it was originally used until Ilia Klimkin used it as a serious element in many of his programs, and it was used to show the character of the music - not just as a trick.

I think the reason the spiral is favored is just that it looks so pretty, never mind whether it is difficult or not.
Well. we can be certain that little girls love it, and therefore it is judged as a major element.
 

jaws12345

Match Penalty
Joined
Apr 9, 2009
Good question. While she fulfills the requirements for the spiral sequence, hers looks really ugly. Give her the level 4, but she should get negative GOE because it just looks BAD. She definitely got bonus GOE points just for being Yu-Na.

What a childish comment. It seems to me that what you say translates into nothing more than I don't like her.

I was at Staple's center in person, and I noticed that Yu-Na Kim's spiral was way faster and had more ice coverage than anyone else's at the top tier, while it had the comparable quality in other aspects. She deserved the best GOE of the night for that element.
 
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Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
What a childish comment. It seems to me that what you say translates into nothing more than I don't like her.

I was at Staple's center in person, and I noticed that Yu-Na Kim's spiral was way faster and had more ice coverage than anyone else's at the top tier, while it had the comparable quality in other aspects. She deserved the best GOE of the night for that element.

yes ,her speed was the best, but if you go back and look under the MITF requirements, speed is never one of the two qualities looked for in spirals. The judges want edge control and flexiblity. Yu-na's flexiblity is average, nothing special, but better than skaters such as Racheal. Her edge control in the change of edge is also avergae, like Kimmie, she wobbles as she changes edge, she does not have the seemless transition from inside to outside like Michelle, Sasha and Caroline have.
 

jenny

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Her edge control in the change of edge is also avergae, like Kimmie, she wobbles as she changes edge, she does not have the seemless transition from inside to outside like Michelle, Sasha and Caroline have.

i don't agree with you.
Yuna's edge control is best of the ladies, not average.
you forgot her speed. the stable change of edge keeping speed is more difficult.
Yu-na has never been overrated, Rather, she was underrated occasionally like this situation.
her spiral has good speed, ice-coverage, stable edge-change and musical interpretation like facial expression.
and her body line is pretty good not bad.
 
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Dipyramidal

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
well her body line is okay, but certainly not the best.
her spirals don't express the feeling of the music. (Most of the the top ladies don't too.)
Her edges need some work too, and they certainy aren't the best. she gets a ! for the flip.
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
well her body line is okay, but certainly not the best.
her spirals don't express the feeling of the music. (Most of the the top ladies don't too.)
Her edges need some work too, and they certainy aren't the best. she gets a ! for the flip.


The reference to edge control above was to the change of edge in a spiral not on jumps so it's not really relevant whether or not her flip has received "!". Furthermore, the "!" is only a warning from the techn specialist so it really means nothing unless a "e" is given.

Ant
 

Dipyramidal

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
The reference to edge control above was to the change of edge in a spiral not on jumps so it's not really relevant whether or not her flip has received "!". Furthermore, the "!" is only a warning from the techn specialist so it really means nothing unless a "e" is given.

Ant

sorry the ! for flip was a serperate point.
i was talking about the spirals, thank you very much.

she got an e in coc
 
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