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Thanks Toni - I didn't feel up to reading back through the vast number of posts. I feared there would be too much rabid fan posts going on to be worthwhile!!
Ant
Ladies LP
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Thanks Toni - I didn't feel up to reading back through the vast number of posts. I feared there would be too much rabid fan posts going on to be worthwhile!!
Ant
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There is also a SP, and Joannie was 2nd to Yu-Na and ahead of both Mao and Miki. It wasn't just the downgrades of Asada and Ando that resulted in Rochette's silver, it was the small lead she had over them in the short, too.
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- Jul 27, 2003
Regarding artistry and perception, I think some people need a very distinct style--for instance, Kim's fiery musical interpretation; Asada's obvious lyrical quality; or Cohen's extension and dramatic emoting--to *signal* to them that what they are seeing is "artistry". Rochette is the type of skater that belong to another category, where artistry is defined by a genuine sense of musicality, expressed by subtle but interpretive phrasing, as well as highlighting the nuances of music with gestures and moves that extend from the core, rather than randomly fluttering the arms (which some call expressive). One needs to see it to appreciate it.
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:agree:
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Actually it's Joannie SP. IMO her SP score should be lower than what she received at 4CC and shoult be about the same as Mao's around 66. Her 4CC SP has so much speed and flow and power and had better landing and air position. Also one of her spin, where she spin on one foot while standing up with both arms above her head and other free leg in kindda layback position is the worst spin position of the top ladies. Bad posture, no flexibility and not to mention it travel. Can't believe it's a level 3 spin. She used to have pretty decend layback spin several seasons ago.
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Overall i think this year ladies free skate is higher in quality than previous year. All the top 12 ladies after the SP skate it very well (except Kostner meltdown) =(. The number of falls from the top 12 ladies is far less than last year and most important of all, no tumble from the american ladies.
I can't wait for the Olympics even thou it's 10 months away.
I can't wait for the Olympics even thou it's 10 months away.
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- Jun 24, 2007
Thank you so much. :thumbsup::agree::agree::thumbsup: "Genuine" is the right word to describe Rochette.
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See, I found the opposite true. I thought her SP was improved from 4CC. Rochette's timing to the music was better at Worlds. It's a shame she didn't have the speed from the 3Lutz to execute the 3toe she had been performing so well in practices and warm-ups, but her big, powerful 2Axel extending into a spiral landing and her footwork into 3flip with the raised arms not just performing the jump but also presenting it with authority and control were great. I think Joannie's layback was her weakest element in this SP, as it was at 4CC. She only received a level 2 layback spin from the judges at Worlds. She will want to improve on this next season, and also get that 3+3 combination down to challenge Yu-Na. I could definitely see that Joannie was opening up more and better presenting to the audience at Worlds better than she did at 4CC. Her ending reminded me of Michelle Kwan in her Aranjuez program with the way she reached out and embraced the audience.
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- Dec 13, 2005
I think it's better for Joannie if she just does a triple lutz double toe combination. This combination is solid and she seems to tense and tighten up when she goes for a triple triple. If she can score a 67 with this program content I say she keeps it! :thumbsup:
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Well, I'm afraid in doing so, she leaves the opportunity for gold up in the air and must rely on others to make mistakes.
If Rochette could cleanly perform 3Lutz+3toe, 3flip, and 2Axel in the SP and 3Lutz+3toe, 3flip, 3loop, x3Lutz, x2Axel+3toe, x3Salchow+2toe+2loop, and x2Axel in the LP, I think she could challenge Yu-Na for gold.
Another LP jump layout for her that would give her more base value than her current layout would be: 3Lutz, 3flip, 3loop, x3Lutz+2toe+2loop, x2Axel+3toe, x3flip+2toe, and x3Salchow.
Her jump sequences despite being difficult are not sufficiently rewarded under the code of points.
If she could channel into the mindset she had during her 2009 Canadian Nationals LP every time she competes, she could really challenge with the above jump layouts.
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- Dec 13, 2005
I would rather her have a secure jump combination than something she is not all that comfortable with and has little success with in competitions. I think it is far too big of a risk to take in an Olympic year. In all honesty If Yu-Na skates clean I really don't think there is anyone that will be able to catch her, even if the field skates clean.
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- Jul 27, 2003
That would obviously be the ideal game plan for RochetteWell, I'm afraid in doing so, she leaves the opportunity for gold up in the air and must rely on others to make mistakes.
If Rochette could cleanly perform 3Lutz+3toe, 3flip, and 2Axel in the SP and 3Lutz+3toe, 3flip, 3loop, x3Lutz, x2Axel+3toe, x3Salchow+2toe+2loop, and x2Axel in the LP, I think she could challenge Yu-Na for gold.
But seeing how she struggled every single time in the SP when she was attempting the 3flip/3toe, I think it would be a miracle if her 3lutz/3toe becomes consistent by next season. I would love to be proven wrong though.
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No, it was the downgrades. The overall result had Joannie ahead of Miki by less than a point and ahead of Mao by 3 points. The downgrade Miki received on her 3Loop in the LP lost her over 4 points. For Mao, the downgrade on the second 3Axel (made it worth 0 points overall) and the downgrade on a 2Loop in combination (which caused -GOE to be given to a perfectly good Triple Flip) caused the point gap to have Joannie overtake her.
Also, Joannie shouldn't have been ahead of Miki after the SP. Yet again a downgrade (on Miki's 3Loop in combination) is what caused that result. Miki's Lutz was huge and perfectly landed. She followed it with a slightly underrotated 3Loop. The result? It was worth 6.3 points. Joannie's Lutz had a hard landing and she followed it with a 2Toe. The result? It was worth 7.3 points.
The scoring system is a joke when it comes to this issue.
It's too bad that the qualities you've written about didn't define Joannie's performance (IMO). The choreography she was given might have been aiming for those things, but the way she emotes and moves her body does not reflect it very well. I think her program from last year was a much better fit.
Kozuka would be a good example of someone who successfully pulled off a subtle performance at these Championships.
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- Dec 13, 2005
Why do you think it is a joke? If skaters would properly rotate their jumps they would receieve full points for them. I don't see anything wrong for rewarding correctly done jumps.
Those underrotation were pretty obvious though. All, Mao's and Miki's, were clearly visible without the use of slo-mo replay and even more painfully obvious when shown in replay before the marks were announced. I can understand frustration with UR calls that are questionable but these were not at all.
I can understand people thinking that skaters should be placed in front of others PCS-wise, because that is completely subjective. But Mao and Miki made technical mistakes, which aren't subjective at all. I suppose you could say UR calls can sometimes be shady, but these calls were completely correct! Some of the most obvious URs i've seen in a long time!
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So, Joannie should return her World silver medal because Miki was downgraded on her cheated 3loops in both the SP and LP and because Mao doubled and flutzed her Lutz jump in the SP and fell on a cheated and downgraded 3Axel and was downgraded on her cheated 2loop in the LP, and you don't like it, mkay.
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You don't seem to understand the point. A combination of a beautiful 3Lutz into a slightly underrotated 3Loop should absolutely be worth more than an average 3Lutz into a 2Toe.
The penalty for underrotating a jump should be a moderate mark down in the base value of the jump. Saying that a slightly underrotated Triple is only a double AND that it automatically deserves -GOE makes no sense.
Miki's 3Loop in the LP was not UR more than a 1/4 turn (in the SP, yes). But, again, the fact that they were downgraded is not the point. The problem is that the penalty downgraded jumps receive is much too severe. If you slightly underrotate a Triple, the penalty is just as severe (or even more severe) than if you had fallen on the jump. This is a big, big problem.
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So, Joannie should return her World silver medal because Miki was downgraded on her cheated 3loops in both the SP and LP and because Mao doubled and flutzed her Lutz jump in the SP and fell on a cheated and downgraded 3Axel and was downgraded on her cheated 2loop in the LP, and you don't like it, mkay.
Read what I've written. You don't understand the problems with the scoring system. (and never did I talk about Mao doubling her solo jump in the SP; the deduction she received there was fair)
So, yes, I am pretty mad that Miki's FAR superior combination the SP was given a lesser score than Joannie's. And that Joannie's 2Loop in the LP was worth more points than Miki's 3Loop in the LP.
In what World is flat-out doubling a Triple better than slightly underrotating it?
The combination of a beautiful triple lutz and underrotated triple loop is a poorly done combination. Period. I don't want to argue about points and whatnot because it's been already been discussed to death. The rules for underrotation are in place and as long as everybody is treated the same way in regards to these rules, I don't see the problem. Yes, there can be some shady calls, but none of these were. Miki clearly understood going into the long, and chose to do a triple-double instead. A wise choice. Mao seemingly understood as well, but still underrotated the second jump.
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