USFS Championship, worthless title?

Like any sport, on any given day, you could "bomb" and lose to an inferior opponent. And in the case of something like Jeremy vs Evan, on any given day, either of them could win. That's why the skaters go to all these competitions instead of determining the results on paper.

I think Jeremy was just too nervous, maybe because it was his first time going in as a medal contender. But he didn't exactly bomb. He just struggled more than you would expect him to.

Alissa bombed her SP, but her LP was pretty much her usual, maybe even a bit better than her usual. I think she was just way too worked up coming in to this as the National Champ. After she was buried in the SP standings, she seemed to relax for the LP. She's just not a great competitor, and she has never been a consistent jumper, but if only she could have controlled her nerves a little better. Looking at the scores, 8th place clearly could have been attainable and the U.S. could have secured three spots for next year.

M/B pretty much bombed. They are a beautiful pair with a load of potential, and they lost to some teams that they really should be beating, so that has got to sting for them. I don't know if they just put too much pressure on themselves, if they are tired from their first "real" Senior season, or if they just haven't had enough time yet to get more consistent doing all the elements. Judging by what they have said to the media, it was probably a combination of things like this. Unlike Alissa and even Jeremy, they are really brand new to all of this. They're still quite young and they'll figure it out.

I'm sure there must be some pressure to compete as the reigning National Champ, but these skaters really shouldn't get that worked up over it (easier said than done, I'm sure). Each competition is a new experience and you start fresh. And as for the actual thread title-- A National title is an amazing accomplishment, especially in a country like the U.S. where there is a lot of skating talent and it's an achievement to even make it to Nationals at the Sr level.

The USFS and US judges have got to stop judging people on potential and judge on what they see on the ice at Nationals.

There is no way M&B should have been sent to Worlds as US champions. She's grown, and he is short. He had a previous failure to adapt when his partner grew (Miller). He does not seem to be making the adjustment this time iether. Even the lifts at Worlds were not that great. She on the other hand had problems with the jumps when short. She has as many (and perhaps more) now that she is taller. Wishful thinking by USFS, the judges, and the fans will not cure any of these problems. It is possible that M&B will fix these problems. I hope they do. However, they should not be awarded for either their past achievements in juniors or the hope of their future (and not assured) achievements. It is more likely that D&B will learn better style in the future than that M&B will overcome their difficulties. D&B should have finished first at Nationals this year.

Alyssa Czisny has never had a good competitive head. Perhaps she will develop one, and when she is in the zone she is a lovely skater. In the LP at US nationals, frankly she should have been behind Joelle Forte let alone Rachael and Caroline. Again, she should not have been graded on her loveliness or her potential (or for that matter on her SP), but on what she had actually achieved in the LP.

This is not a new problem for US judging.

chuckm said:

I agree with that. I was there, and I thought Alissa was WAY overmarked in the SP as well, as a cushion to ensure that she'd win the championship.

I am thoroughly disgusted with the political manipulation of Nationals results. I felt the same way with McLaughlin/Brubaker (whom I love) being placed ahead of Denney/Barrett. D/B gave two solid performances and McL/B struggled in the FS (just as they did at Worlds).

Don't get me wrong. I like Alissa and think she is a lovely skater. But she is just NOT a good competitor and never will be, and it was a major mistake to make her US champion and subject her to that degree of pressure.

OTOH, Zhang with all her technical faults is a fierce and steady competitor, and I believe both Caroline and Rachael would have had a much better chance of securing 3 spots for Vancouver.

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I totally agree with everything that you said. Denny and Barrett have been impressive at sectionals, nationals and worlds. With the exception of SA, McL&B have been struggling this year and have stagnated.

I remember watching Alissa at Nationals and palpably felt everyone in the audience hold their breath while she was skating her SP. I think that the overmarking was a function of the fact that she didn't fall. I also wonder what it would be like to return to the days of Michelle when one didn't have to hold one's breath and sit back and just enjoy the beauty of her skating.

Meryl and Charlie were robbed far more than Tanith and Ben, although they should have finished ahead of Domnina and Shabalin. I think (IMHO) that they are extraordinary and may be the US team that finally cracks the gold barrier.

i know. The men placed in reverse orderof nationals, and so did the ladies.
I think that Nationals this year was a very strange event. yeah, we knew that Davis and White were doing to win, with Belbin and Agosto gone, but B&A are stiil the #1 dance team, so Meryl and Charlie placing below them at worlds was not really a surpise.
Jeremey had a great year, and I think he was very tired and had a lot of pressure as the reigning champion. I know that he has been a senior for years, but he was never in the spotlight so he is still a freshman at this sort of thing. Evan just had a off day at nationals, we all get them. He redemeed himself here. Mroz was very good in both events, but never as good as the top man.

In pairs the teams placed in reverse order at worlds as well. Arguagbly, Cadee and Jeremy should have won Nationals anyway. Keauna and Rockne have had a pretty rough year, and I think thier nerves got the better of them here, when the pressure was on them, while Cadee and Jeremey skated pretty well since they had no expectations whatsoever.

It's not just the Americans

• Alёna Leonova, 5th (!) at Russian Senior Nationals - 4th at Europeans, 7th at Worlds, World Junior Champion
• Andrej Lutai , 3rd at Russian Senior Nationals - but best placed Russian at Europeans (7th) and Worlds (10th) with a solid long program each time, leaving two-time Russian National Champion Voronov in the dust

I don't think it's fair to characterize D/W as being in the same category as Czisny, Abbot and McLaughlin/Brubaker.

D/W won the US championship in the absence of B/A. In all probability, if B/A had been there, B/A would have won.

Also, I do think Abbott DID deserve to win the US Championship, whereas Czisny and McL/B were given a gift they didn't quite earn.

It's tragic that USFSA judges always inflate the scores of their skaters, and then the American fans always wonder why they were underscored. That fact is, they were overscored in the first place and given high expectations that they cannot possibly live up to.

As much as I love Czisny's spins and spirals, giving her the job of securing 3 spots with 5 triples was a big error. No one else might agree with me, but I think Flatt and Wagner could have done the job.

chuckm said:

I do think Abbott DID deserve to win the US Championship, whereas Czisny and McL/B were given a gift they didn't quite earn.

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I totally agree! Poor Rachael, Caydee and Jeremy should all be National Champions.

no,
olympic title is worthless due to no high school diploma, coming back and not winning anything, doing marijuanna, drugs, mouthing off, bad character etc.politiiking, technical cheating, judges cheating.
expectations are more for national champs than2nd and 3rd place finishers .
so when finish higher than champs. champs seem worthless but not, pressure more for champs and former champs.

dorispulaski said:

The USFS and US judges have got to stop judging people on potential and judge on what they see on the ice at Nationals.

There is no way M&B should have been sent to Worlds as US champions. She's grown, and he is short. He had a previous failure to adapt when his partner grew (Miller). He does not seem to be making the adjustment this time iether. Even the lifts at Worlds were not that great. She on the other hand had problems with the jumps when short. She has as many (and perhaps more) now that she is taller.

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I don't think McLaughlin is anywhere near as tall as Miller ended up being... Miller had to have been in the 5'4", 5'5" range. I don't think Keauna will get that tall, but I guess you can never be sure with that type of stuff. Usually by 16 though, you are done growing taller. While Miller/Brubaker visibly struggled with the lifts (they had negative GOEs on them a lot, and he could hardly throw her either), McLaughlin/Brubaker's lifts were probably the least of their problems at these Worlds. lol. Unless they start botching lifts in their programs in the future, I don't see the big deal with her having grown a couple of inches. She's still not tall. As for the jumps, she really has been fine with the 3S all season (unlike last season) until this competition. So I do think she is getting better at jumping. They added in the 3T this season to up the technical content, and neither one of them has been consistent with it at all. Maybe it was a little too soon to add that element in, but they took their chances probably because they want to be competitive for medals, and you can't really do that with a 2A.

However, they should not be awarded for either their past achievements in juniors or the hope of their future (and not assured) achievements. It is more likely that D&B will learn better style in the future than that M&B will overcome their difficulties.

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I don't think M/B were rewarded necessarily for past achievements/potential. If it's just about who lands everything the best and doesn't mess up, then why even bother skating an actual program? Shut off the music, stop with the choreography, take out the lifts and death spirals and everything else, and just do the jumps until someone wipes out, and then declare the team who stayed on their feet the winner. It's not like M/B won by a lot. They won by a few points due to higher PCS scores, which they deserve. They also had a more technically demanding program. I think you could make reasonable arguments in favor of either side winning. But both teams basically skated the same LPs at Four Continents, and M/B still came out ahead.

Alyssa Czisny has never had a good competitive head. Perhaps she will develop one, and when she is in the zone she is a lovely skater. In the LP at US nationals, frankly she should have been behind Joelle Forte let alone Rachael and Caroline. Again, she should not have been graded on her loveliness or her potential (or for that matter on her SP), but on what she had actually achieved in the LP.

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I agree. I wouldn't have minded so much if Alissa had skated the most technically demanding program of the night, but hers was definitely easier and less clean than either Rachael or Caroline's. She's also not really better than them presentation wise either. So I will never understand that one.

National titles are not worthless, a win is always pleasing, I´d imagine. I just have the opinion, that Nationals is not the most important competition of the season, that is the Worlds or in the Olympic-season the Olympics. The latter competitions are those where the skater should be trained to peak, not at the Nationals.

About the male US National Champions, they mostly have not had good luck in major international competitions like Worlds/ recently:

2005 Weir the champion, Lysacek won a WC bronze
2006 Weir the champion, Lysacek won a WC bronze and placed higher in OG
2007 Lysacek the Champion, an exception = he placed higher than Weir
2008 Lysacek - injured, did not participate in Worlds, Weir won WC bronze
2009 Abbot the champion, did not rise to the occasion at Worlds, rather low placement for a US champion

It will be most exciting to see what happens in next season. Personally I think that for the men it is best to take the Nationals really seriously as the OG are a lot closer than in normal year the Worlds, and to skate at Nationals well enough to be sent to OG and WC, but not to make extra pressure by trying desperately to become the champion... That competitive spirit should be saved for coming major events. Just remembering Evan´s 2007 Nationals performance, which would have been great at Worlds. I think that a skater is mostly capable of only one really awesome performance = to give his all during one season and that should be saved for the most important event, in my opinion. In 2009 WC Evan peaked at the right time, WOW!!!! What a way to end the season....

Mathman said:

As for the question in the title of this thread, "Is the title of U.S. Champion worthless," I think we are looking at it the wrong way. Winning the national championship is a great achievement, an accomplishment to treasure in memory forever. Ask Rudy Galindo.

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Great point! It is a treasured memory.

Mathman said:

That achievement is independent of winning medals at other events such as the Grand Prix, the world championships, the Olympics, etc.

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I sure like the way you think. :thumbsup: It is interesting that most of the US National champions were outshown by their teammates this Worlds. But that is the way skating goes.

Michelle'sFan