This turned out to be a very bad year for Alissa.

That's a bad argument. Alissa had a deservedly large lead after the SP. You have to consider everything, not just who landed more triples in the LP.

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Clearly I think that Alissa performed poorly enough in the long and Caroline/Rachael well enough in the long for them to deservedly overcome that lead.

Particle Man said:

I am hereby calling out every single person who believes that Alissa was "held up" at Nationals. I'm not one of them, but I know there are many, because they screamed about it for weeks on these forums.

If you believe this, it is your responsibility to write an email or letter to the USFSA after Alissa's performance at Worlds. Now is the time to do it. Put up, or shut up.

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Your posts are so irrational and childish.

bekalc said:

Someone said Zhang was spotted in tears at Worlds watching a practice or something. All I'm trying to say is that what happened at US Nationals was cruel and wrong. There was absolutely nothing fair about what the USFSA judges did...

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Umm, I ran into Caroline a couple of times at Worlds. Every time I saw her, she was running around with her friends, giggling and acting very much like the teenager she is.

museksk8r said:

Your posts are so irrational and childish.

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It's irrational and childish to tell people to direct their criticisms at USFSA instead of screaming into the wind?

Ya know, Alissa Czisny may well become the women's answer to Paul Wylie...so don't count her out until she calls for a press conference for her retirement.

And this past year was not bad for her, not by a long shot. The fact that she is able to continue skating means this was just an OK year for her. Sure, not the best, but in terms of what other people in the world go through (other skaters, even)...missing two elements in the short does not erase the countless moments of beauty she has given skating.

And who cares about having three spots? The last time we only had 2 in the Olympics, one of the women won a silver medal after being off the ice for nearly a month before the Olympics!

Well, well. I think the original poster made a great point. So did MM.

Objectively, Alyssa DID have a respectable season- the best she's had, possibly ever. And this is despite her SP meltdown at worlds.

BUT- there is one profound thing that made the difference. She became US champion, and under the rules, that means she had to go to the World Championships, where Olympic berths were on the line, instead of doing only Four Continents where she could have increased her confidence even more. It was just too much too soon for Czisny. This shouldn't be shocking to anyone...All of a sudden, you go from people rooting for you and wanting you to win, to expecting you to raise your game deliver 3 spots for Vancouver.

Czisny could have even been placed 2nd at Nats and USFS could have sent #1 and #3 to worlds based on international experience. But I think USFS looked at the way Zhang was scored for a CLEAN routine at TEB, and the way Alyssa was doing, and decided to go with Alyssa instead, since Caroline at her best barely cracked 100 points. Unfortunately for USFS, at Four Continents she once again delivered and got 15 more points for it. I think then they might have realized they probably didn't make the best choice, but it was too late to do anything. But then Junior Worlds happened, and Zhang tanked the SP over there. This led writers like Phil Hersh to write "told ya so" articles and pro-Czisny posters felt validated by such a result. Then Big Worlds comes. The pressure is enormous. Rachel does a commenable job for her first trip, but unpredictable Alyssa went down in the SP. I swear, she's like trying to carry a ticking time bomb- you don't know if you'll throw it away safely or if it will blow up in your face!!

At least I'm glad she saved it with a strong FS (by her standard)...but it wasn't enough. And for that reason people won't look at this season as Czisny's best- instead, they'll view her as letting Team USA down when they counted on her most. I wonder how she feels about that. And it didn't even have to be this way. The Nationals judges COULD have given the title to Rachel instead (it was close!) and saved Czisny that pressure. I think it would have been in Alyssa's favor. Of course though, you take it away from Czisny and put it on someone like Caroline Zhang. How on EARTH do you people know she wouldn't have crumbled either? I don't have a problem with posters saying she should have gone instead of Alyssa- part of me thinks the same thing. But I take issue with people declaring with near certainty that Zhang would have gotten three spots. We just don't know what would have happened, and never will.

With two spots, I wonder if Kwan and/or Cohen will have second thoughts about returning. With 3 spots I think the possibility of at least Cohen returning would have been raised, IMHO. They both know that they are old-timers and they will really have to bring it nationally to beat the TRUE contenders. And if they have to pull out due to injury, I REALLY hope the USFS denies them the Olympic spot. They've had their chances already.

But you know, this is now all coulda-should-woulda. it's over and done with. Nothing we can do. Business as usual for the skaters, as one less spot will only make 2010 Nats that much more competitive and intense.

Particle Man said:

It's irrational and childish to tell people to direct their criticisms at USFSA instead of screaming into the wind?

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PM, I don't think it was the message itself but the way the message was delivered that is the issue.

blue dog said:

Ya know, Alissa Czisny may well become the women's answer to Paul Wylie...so don't count her out until she calls for a press conference for her retirement.

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I wouldn't mind seeing that since I can't really remember Paul's moment!

And who cares about having three spots? The last time we only had 2 in the Olympics, one of the women won a silver medal after being off the ice for nearly a month before the Olympics!

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That's because when you're counted out, all eyes and pressure is off and you can really just go out and take it. Let the others crumble!

Particle Man said:

It's irrational and childish to tell people to direct their criticisms at USFSA instead of screaming into the wind?

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It's irrational and childish to get so defensive like you do whenever people don't agree with your thought processes and you constantly present your opinions as facts. This is a community forum for skating fans to express their opinions, yet in this thread you're telling people they shouldn't express their thoughts here, and that it's a waste of time. Who made you God?

I do not think the results of a championship or outcomes of future championships will be reversed or changed by fans writing in to express their displeasure at how the system works. I think politics and controversy has been, is, and always will be a part of the subjective sport of figure skating. Sure, our opinions and complaints here won't achieve world peace in our sport, but people should have every right to express their thoughts, share impressions, and vent their frustrations. That's what a forum is for.

How on EARTH do you people know she wouldn't have crumbled either? I don't have a problem with posters saying she should have gone instead of Alyssa- part of me thinks the same thing. But I take issue with people declaring with near certainty that Zhang would have gotten three spots. We just don't know what would have happened, and never will.

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We don't know how Caroline would have done, your right. But here's the thing, we all know that Caroline would have been more likely to deliver than Alissa would have given history. Plus, Alissa attempted 4 triples every time this season, four triples wasn't going to cut it internationally, and then add in her headcase issues.

At the very least Caroline would have attempted more than 4 triples in the long.

Tonichelle said:

while we're at it, let's blame Michelle Kwan too. How dare she ever go into retirement, doesn't she realize 3 olympic spots are at stake every four years????

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(KW off to clean computer screen of spewed coffee...)

and let's not forget Sasha & Sarah - selfish selfish selfish girls...

bekalc said:

TES and PCS. They could have justifibly placed Alissa 10TH in the free skate. They gave her 7 points in PCS over Zhang and Flatt, something that would have never, ever, ever happened internationally. When Alissa lands 3 triples and Zhang and Rachael skate reasonably well.

And I'm tired of people saying no big deal. Because it is a big deal. Imagine how Rachael Flatt and Caroline Zhang feel. Imagine it, you go out there attempt 7 triple jumps jumps land six of them. Skate your absolutely very best. And the USFSA judges decide to give the title to a girl who lands only 3 triple jumps, attempting four?

Caroline Zhang was apparently at Worlds In TEARS. And then there's Rachael who skates her absolute heart and soul out there to win those three spots. But hey what can she do because Alissa only attempts four triple jumps in the long program. Hey that's what the USFSA wanted.

And who knows Sasha and Michelle Kwan are coming back! So hey guess what that means Rachael may not even get to go to the Olympics now. Because of course the USFSA will give them higher PCS than her again.

So seriously how do you think Rachael and Caroline Zhang feel at this point right now?

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Ya know, I hate to say this because I do understand where you're coming from but the truth of the matter is that it doesn't really matter how Rachael, Caroline, Mirai or even USFSA feels right now... this is a sport. sometimes you win. sometimes you lose. those are the rules and that's how it should be.

Alyssa skated well enough to win the nationals title and awful enough to blow the US getting three spots at the Olympics. tough toenails.

But good look to the country that had competitors skate well enough to earn the spot the US lost...

It is what it is...

I doubt Kwan will come back, and IMO Sasha's chance of coming back is probably about 5-1.

What would annoy the heck out of me would be if Sasha came back and had a subpar FS but was gifted with the US title anyway, taking it away from Rachael once again.

Kwanford Wife said:

Alyssa skated well enough to win the nationals title and awful enough to blow the US getting three spots at the Olympics. tough toenails.

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Well if I felt that Alissa actually "deserved" to win Nationals, I'd say oh well stuff happens. But I don't think Alissa deserved to win Nationals. Rachael and Caroline completely and totally out skated her. She shouldn't have a 3 jump lead over Flatt and Zhang. The international judges don't think she has one... It was a ridiculous and embarrassing result. That involved politics and favoritism.

I'm not even sure why they bothered to even hold the long program, because it clearly didn't matter how any of them skated.

IF Alissa had skated well at US Nationals and landed 5 triple jumps, you know what I would have felt differently about the situation. And it woudl have been okay Alissa earned her spot, what can you do.

But Alissa didn't earn her spot, she was held up because the USFSA judges choose to go with potential, rather going with the people who deliver the best under pressure.

chuckm said:

I doubt Kwan will come back, and IMO Sasha's chance of coming back is probably about 5-1.

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After last night I think it just dropped to 10-1

What would annoy the heck out of me would be if Sasha came back and had a subpar FS but was gifted with the US title anyway, taking it away from Rachael once again.

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WORD ON THE STREET

That's why I'm against "comebacks" by either Cohen or Kwan. They will get the preferential treatment at nats and it won't be fair to the other competitors. And what's more, once they DO get to the Olys they would have no better shot at a medal than say, Rachel Flatt does right now.

But, as for taking the title away from Rachel how on earth can you know that?! We don't know if Rachel will step up to the plate again next year. Had she skated Sat. night's performance at Nationals she, not Alyssa, would have been national champ- so I think in a way, Rachel sort of sabotaged herself with this year's LP choice. Had no fire to it at all.

bekalc said:

Alissa didn't earn her spot, she was held up because the USFSA judges choose to go with potential, rather going with the people who deliver the best under pressure.

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I don't think the USFS went with "potential", because based on previous performances under pressure, Alissa's had a far greater potential to bomb than to shine. Starting in 2002, Alissa had competed at 7 previous Senior Nationals and won just one bronze (2007). Her highest finish prior to that was 7th in 2005 and 2006. Internationally, at her one Worlds appearance in 2007, she finished 16th; and the one time she made the GPF (in 2006), she finished last with an embarrassing performance.

What I think the USFS did was give Alissa a sort of 'lifetime achievement award' based on her longevity and a fairly successful season.

Based on that, I fear that if Cohen and/or Kwan return to Nationals 2010, one or both will make the podium even if they are majorly outskated by younger skaters.

bekalc said:

Well if I felt that Alissa actually "deserved" to win Nationals, I'd say oh well stuff happens. But I don't think Alissa deserved to win Nationals. Rachael and Caroline completely and totally out skated her. She shouldn't have a 3 jump lead over Flatt and Zhang. The international judges don't think she has one... It was a ridiculous and embarrassing result. That involved politics and favoritism.

I'm not even sure why they bothered to even hold the long program, because it clearly didn't matter how any of them skated.

IF Alissa had skated well at US Nationals and landed 5 triple jumps, you know what I would have felt differently about the situation. And it woudl have been okay Alissa earned her spot, what can you do.

But Alissa didn't earn her spot, she was held up because the USFSA judges choose to go with potential, rather going with the people who deliver the best under pressure.

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Well, in the USFS' defense (I can't believe I just said that lol) they have never really been in this situation before. Time and time again they've had a Kwan or a Cohen or a 16-yo Meissner who was highly dependable and could get 3 spots for them even with a meltdown. Last year was really the first year that the decision became difficult. they had no choice but to send the "B-team" since he A-Team was too young. So now the B-Team loses a spot, and we're down to 2 for LA. You've got Alyssa who has high potential, but can also blow up in your face (again, like a timebomb), you've got Zhang who handles pressure relatively well, but isn't really competitive with the top crop even at her best. What do you do?

Seems like most fans would have manipulated the scores to ensure Alyssa didn't win the event, and therefore wouldn't have had to go to worlds. But in Czisny's defense she turned in strong performances in the GP. It was a gamble from the get-go, like I said before. Zhang IMO would have been just as much of a gamble, but probably the "safer" choice in terms of dependability. I think if anything, the USFS has learned a valuable lesson and I think we'll see a change of policy in the coming seasons in the way that they select the Olympic/World team.

I am not sure exactly what is being alleged here.

(1) Do we think that the USFSA, dishonestly and culpably, instructed their judges to give Alissa higher scores than she deserved, to make sure that she would win the U.S. Championship?

(2) If so, what would be their motive? The political pull of Czisny's coach, the famous and powerful Julie Berlin? A diabolical conspiracy to make Caroline Zhang cry? So that they could look foolish when Alissa failed to deliver?

I might be out of line here - but have any of you SEEN the US ladies skate this year? None of them are what I'd call "champion material." Lots of potential. Some have one or two things that are clearly the bestest ever - but competitive with the rest of the world? I think not.

We should be happy that Alyssa and Rachael did as well as they did and face the fact that yes, Alyssa won the national championships but it wasn't a guarntee that she'd perform well at Worlds and by the same token we STILL don't know what Caroline would've put together based on her performance at Jr. Worlds. Yes, she fought back in the long but if she was the best person to send to Worlds ove Alyssa where do you think her slow skating, tiny jumps and immaturity would've landed her?

You've got Alyssa who has high potential, but can also blow up in your face (again, like a timebomb), you've got Zhang who handles pressure relatively well, but isn't really competitive with the top crop even at her best. What do you do?

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What high potential on Alissa's part? The concept of Alissa's "high potential is also a joke and was in the minds of the USFSA judges only. Alissa averaged 4 triple jump attempts this year. That doesn't cut it....Even if Alissa went perfectly clean she wasn't going to finish ahead of (Mao, Kim, Rochette, Ando, and Kostner if (Kostner skated reasonably well) It's questionable if she'd finish ahead of Laura Lepisto, who has similar strengths to Alissa and whom the judges love. Or even Fumie Suguri who is a 3 time world medalist, attempts more jumps than Alissa.

Alissa may be a pretty, pretty skater, but she's not competitive with the best in the world period.

In contrast Zhang and Flatt actually HAD more potential than Alissa because they normally attempt more triple jumps..They at least can out jump the likes of Laura and Fumie.

I wasn't surprised at all when I saw Rachael finish fifth place.