This turned out to be a very bad year for Alissa.

evangeline · Mar 30, 2009

Kwanford Wife said:
I might be out of line here - but have any of you SEEN the US ladies skate this year? None of them are what I'd call "champion material." Lots of potential. Some have one or two things that are clearly the bestest ever - but competitive with the rest of the world? I think not.

We should be happy that Alyssa and Rachael did as well as they did and face the fact that yes, Alyssa won the national championships but it wasn't a guarntee that she'd perform well at Worlds and by the same token we STILL don't know what Caroline would've put together based on her performance at Jr. Worlds. Yes, she fought back in the long but if she was the best person to send to Worlds ove Alyssa where do you think her slow skating, tiny jumps and immaturity would've landed her?

Well, Caroline's "slow skating, tiny jumps and immaturity" landed her in 4th place in the rather deep field at 4CC...

Anyways, it IS pretty pointless to predict how Caroline would've fared if she did indeed go to Worlds this year, but I have a feeling that if Caroline only landed 3-4 triples in her LP, most people would've called it a meltdown. But not so with Alissa, which is pretty telling....

museksk8r · Mar 30, 2009

evangeline said:
Anyways, it IS pretty pointless to predict how Caroline would've fared if she did indeed go to Worlds this year, but I have a feeling that if Caroline only landed 3-4 triples in her LP, most people would've called it a meltdown. But not so with Alissa, which is pretty telling....

Yes, that says it all for me too. :agree:

Alicja · Mar 30, 2009

Random thought: I think it was so absolutely annoying that Alissa was declared to save the state of US women's skating because the is a real women. It totally turned me off. And I also don't think it's true.

Now I like Alissa and her spins are fab, she's also incredibly flexible. But I don't think she's that superior to the younger girls in terms of presentation. She doesn't really sell her programs. She's really nice to watch but she lacks the confidence and just doesn't display much joy while skating.

museksk8r · Mar 30, 2009

Alicja said:
But I don't think she's that superior to the younger girls in terms of presentation. She doesn't really sell her programs. She's really nice to watch but she lacks the confidence and just doesn't display much joy while skating.

I agree. Alissa lacks attack and charisma. She's an internal skater and you can always see the fear and doubt on her face when she approaches a jump, which affects her performance/execution scores. Also, her programs lack strong edging, powerful speed, and difficult transitions, which affect her skating skills and transitions scores under PCS. Just my opinions.

LeCygne · Mar 30, 2009

Red Dog said:
You've got Alyssa who has high potential, but can also blow up in your face (again, like a timebomb), you've got Zhang who handles pressure relatively well, but isn't really competitive with the top crop even at her best. What do you do?

Alissa has been on the scene for nearly 10 years. She doesn't have much time left, next season may very well be her last. So she started to improve in her second-to-last season, after a whole career of being more or less a disaster. In her career, she has had HALF a good season. Two good GP showings that ended in a GPF meltdown. I'll even give her 2007 Nationals. But that's not called potential.

Potential is a fresh, young face bursting onto the scene and taking everyone by storm. Potential is Caroline Zhang, who in her very first season on the senior circuit medaled at both of her GP events and was one 3lutz away from a GPF medal. She still has her whole career ahead of her, but already she's accomplished exactly what Alissa has, even more actually.

As for her not being competitive, you don't come in 4th place twice, at two major ISU championships against all the top ladies in the world, and medal at 3 out of 4 of your GP events if you're not "competitive." If USFSA was really thinking TEB in not selecting Caroline like someone mentioned, well they failed to consider the wonders Ave Maria is capable of.

I agree with whoever said they're tired of the "Alissa pity party." If this season, this National title, was indeed some kind of lifetime achievement award, then okay, so be it. Well now she had's another chance, one last chance if the USFSA knows what's good for them. Just please, don't screw things up next season.

Andalusia · Mar 30, 2009

Red Dog said:
Well, in the USFS' defense (I can't believe I just said that lol) they have never really been in this situation before. Time and time again they've had a Kwan or a Cohen or a 16-yo Meissner who was highly dependable and could get 3 spots for them even with a meltdown. Last year was really the first year that the decision became difficult. they had no choice but to send the "B-team" since he A-Team was too young. So now the B-Team loses a spot, and we're down to 2 for LA. You've got Alyssa who has high potential, but can also blow up in your face (again, like a timebomb), you've got Zhang who handles pressure relatively well, but isn't really competitive with the top crop even at her best. What do you do?

Seems like most fans would have manipulated the scores to ensure Alyssa didn't win the event, and therefore wouldn't have had to go to worlds. But in Czisny's defense she turned in strong performances in the GP. It was a gamble from the get-go, like I said before. Zhang IMO would have been just as much of a gamble, but probably the "safer" choice in terms of dependability. I think if anything, the USFS has learned a valuable lesson and I think we'll see a change of policy in the coming seasons in the way that they select the Olympic/World team.

None of the American ladies are competitive with the top guns, but Caroline and Rachael are the best bets at this point. It is positively inane to suggest that Alissa has high scoring potential even if she hits. She has superb spins and spirals, yes, but so does Caroline and many others. Her planned jump content (planned, mind you, not what she usually executes) is laughable when compared to other top American ladies, let alone the likes of Mao and Yu-Na. She does a 3T-2T, for crying out loud - there are junior ladies who do even harder combos than that.

It is also not really true that Alissa had "strong performances" in the GP circuit this season. She had an unexpected 3rd-place finish at SC, skated like how she normally does at CoR, and failed to make the GPF. Alissa has never beaten Rachael internationally.

I can't believe that you would say Caroline was as big of a gamble as Alissa when determining who should have been sent to Worlds. Caroline has demonstrated more consistency in two seasons than Alissa has in her entire career. Say what you want about Zhang's technique, but she has regularly been credited with landing 6 to 7 triples as of late, culminating with her LP at JW, where she landed 7 (including a 3-3) and received +GOEs for multiple jumps. Zhang's LP at JW gives us a rough idea of how she might have performed in L.A., so think about the 3 spots the U.S. could have gotten had she been there and performed that way.

I know I sound like I'm ragging on Alissa, but I'm angry that the judging panel at Nats held her up and that the U.S. now only has 2 spots for the ladies at the Olympics. Had Alissa landed even 5 triples with a fall in her LP at Nats, I'd be fine with her being sent to Worlds (even though I'd be wary because of her history), but she did not.

Kwanford Wife · Mar 30, 2009

Should judges at national competitions base their judging on who might medal vs. what's put on the ice? I watched nationals and didn't see the holding up of one skater over another - what I saw was a strong short program score carry a contender over the top.

But whatever - would it be the official off season without the wuz robbing that we all know and love???

kittyjake5 · Mar 30, 2009

Alissa is not an elite skater never was and never will be. She is a pleasant
skater with some very nice qualities but IMO will always be a" B" skater for a lot of the reasons that have been mentioned in this thread. Another poster stated that Alissa has been skating for almost ten years. I was hoping skating in front of her home country and being the National Champ would give Alissa the confidence to put out two decent programs and get the 3rd spot for the US, but it did not happen. The US does not have any women elite skaters at this time. Rachael and Caroline may get there along with some of the other newbies, we will have to wait and see.

I think that Alissa has had a successful season she won Nationals and got to go to the World Championships in her home country. As to whether Alissa will make the Olympic team I won't hold my breath.

R.D. · Mar 30, 2009

Andalusia said:
I can't believe that you would say Caroline was as big of a gamble as Alissa when determining who should have been sent to Worlds..

Czisny may be inconsistent, but Zhang is unproven. Just like Rachel was, but she delivered at Worlds. That's what I meant. This would have been Caroline's first Worlds. How would she have handled it? How would the other competitors have responded? Questions that we cannot answer pop up. Look what happened at Junior Worlds.

My point is that we have a skater who is inconsistent, night and day, and we have another skater who is new to the scene, and is unproven. Look what happened to Ashley Wagner last year. So much promise, but she went to worlds and struggled big time. placement-wise she did even worse than Czisny this year (12th). THAT's what I mean when I say Zhang wouldn't necessarily have been all that much of a slam dunk like many of you seem to think. And keep in mind that I'm saying all this WHILE I believe that Zhang probably should have been at worlds instead of Czisny.

Caroline has demonstrated more consistency in two seasons than Alissa has in her entire career. Say what you want about Zhang's technique, but she has regularly been credited with landing 6 to 7 triples as of late, culminating with her LP at JW, where she landed 7 (including a 3-3) and received +GOEs for multiple jumps. Zhang's LP at JW gives us a rough idea of how she might have performed in L.A., so think about the 3 spots the U.S. could have gotten had she been there and performed that way.

At the same time, the same 7-T performance at TEB barely gave her over 100 points. Keep in mind that Nationals was BEFORE 4CCs and JW, so at the time it seemed like Caroline's best may not have really been good enough for top 5/6 in the World. But it's possible that missing out ignited a fire in her and she felt she had something to prove, leading to the strong showing at 4CC, and fighting back at JW. Had she gone straight to the Worlds, we don't know if the same Caroline would have shown up. The X-Factor, as I have called it in the past, rears its ugly (?) head again.

Now, this is all moot, coulda-woulda-shoulda stuff.

I know I sound like I'm ragging on Alissa, but I'm angry that the judging panel at Nats held her up and that the U.S. now only has 2 spots for the ladies at the Olympics. Had Alissa landed even 5 triples with a fall in her LP at Nats, I'd be fine with her being sent to Worlds (even though I'd be wary because of her history), but she did not.

I agree, but then again, it's something out of my control (and yours as well) so we'll just have to deal with it. The one thing we can hope is that the USFS learns its lesson and thinks twice now about putting Czisny on any World or Olympic team from now on. I don't envy Alyssa right now, that's for sure.

Mathman · Mar 30, 2009

Kwanford Wife said:
Should judges at national competitions base their judging on who might medal [at Worlds] vs. what's put on the ice?

That is the point that is being blurred in this discussion.

Alissa was sent to worlds because she is the U.S. Champion.

Not because the USFSA thought she had the best chance of winning three Olympic spots, not because she finished ahead of Caroline Zhang in the Grand Prix standings, not because Ashley Wagner did badly at worlds in her first trip, not because Alissa is pretty or grown-up or popular with fans.

So the only question that is really relevant is whether or not U.S. nationals was scored fairly.

I watched nationals and didn't see the holding up of one skater over another - what I saw was a strong short program score carry a contender over the top.

Besides the deserved short program lead, Alissa's program component scores in the LP were about 8 points higher than she typically gets, when she skates OK.

In my opinion this is one of those cases -- like Yu-na Kim's LP at Worlds, or the last couple of times that Michelle Kwan got a string of 6.0's -- where the judges say, well, she is going to win anyway so we might as well pile on the points and try to make people think that they just saw a great competition.

LeCygne · Mar 30, 2009

Kwanford Wife said:
Should judges at national competitions base their judging on who might medal vs. what's put on the ice? I watched nationals and didn't see the holding up of one skater over another - what I saw was a strong short program score carry a contender over the top.

The judges should base their judging on the sole performance in front of their eyes at the moment. Forget about the SP and whatever lead one skater may or may not have had coming in. Rachael was only 5 points behind Alissa in the SP. If Alissa's PCS had not been inflated, the extra 2 triple jumps Rachael completed in her LP, in addition to Alissa's fall, was way more than enough to make up that 5 point deficit from the SP. Same goes for Caroline, who was only 1 more point behind Alissa than Rachael.

As for selection of the World team, desperate times call for desperate measures. Even if Alissa had indeed deservedly won the National championship, dare I say the rule could have been broken for the sake of 3 spots? Alissa could have had the skate of her life to win Nationals, but it's more than likely she won't have the skate of her life again at Worlds. Or better yet, get rid of the rule altogether. That way the judges won't feel compelled to judge Nationals based on who they want to send to Worlds.

In other words, a great showing at Nats (which Alissa did not even have) does not automatically equal a spot on the World team. Space should be left for past history to be taken into consideration.

bekalc · Mar 30, 2009

In my opinion this is one of those cases -- like Yu-na Kim's LP at Worlds, or the last couple of times that Michelle Kwan got a string of 6.0's -- where the judges say, well, she is going to win anyway so we might as well pile on the points and try to make people think that they just saw a great competition.

Ugh, if Alissa hadn't had that extra 8 pcs, she would have LOST. As for Yu-na's LP, the difference was Yu-na skated amazingly and was going to win anyways. There was no contest on who was going to win. They gave YU-na higher scores for a good freakin skate. Not a bad one. If Yu-na had skated poorly she wouldn't have had infalted scores.

With Alissa, that's not the case. The higher PCS was what insured her win. Once again Alissa doesn't have a 3 triple lead over Flatt/Zhang internationally. Once again at US Nationals Alissa landed 3 clean triples and Rachael landed 6 clean triples. So what happens?

The USFSA judges only give Rachael one more point than Alissa for her free skate score...

But at Worlds when Rachael lands 6 triple jumps and Alissa lands 3 triple jumps, what happens. OH right Rachael scores 7 points higher than Alissa (heck! Rachael would have scored 10 points higher if she hadn't lost her spin)

And Alissa skated better at Worlds than she did at US Nationals, there was at least no fall.

So sorry if those of us refuse to think this is fair. Rachael skated easily well enough in her long at Nationals to overcome Alissa's lead. So did Caroline.

If they wanted to inflate people scores, they could have inflated Caroline and Rachael's scores, because they both skated incredibly well six freaking triple jumps. Those would have been the scores you inflate, not the 3 triple wonder from Alissa. It wasn't deserved.

Mathman · Mar 30, 2009

kittyjake5 said:
Alissa is not an elite skater never was and never will be. She is a pleasant skater with some very nice qualities but IMO will always be a" B" skater for a lot of the reasons that have been mentioned in this thread. Another poster stated that Alissa has been skating for almost ten years. I was hoping skating in front of her home country and being the National Champ would give Alissa the confidence to put out two decent programs and get the 3rd spot for the US, but it did not happen. The US does not have any women elite skaters at this time. Rachael and Caroline may get there along with some of the other newbies, we will have to wait and see.

I think that Alissa has had a successful season she won Nationals and got to go to the World Championships in her home country. As to whether Alissa will make the Olympic team I won't hold my breath.

Thank you. This balanced post puts everything into perspective perfectly.

LeCygne · Mar 30, 2009

Red Dog said:
Czisny may be inconsistent, but Zhang is unproven. Just like Rachel was, but she delivered at Worlds. That's what I meant. This would have been Caroline's first Worlds. How would she have handled it? How would the other competitors have responded? Questions that we cannot answer pop up. Look what happened at Junior Worlds.

You make a decision based on what you know so far. You have more information on Alissa, so you have a better idea of how she'll do, and it's not favorable. You have less information on Caroline, but what you do have isn't half bad, so why not take a chance?

At least with Caroline, you can say you didn't know. With Alissa, okay raise your hand if you were genuinely surprised with her performance.

Mathman · Mar 30, 2009

bekalc said:
The reason people are angry because we feel that if international judges were judging...

That, to me, is where your argument loses steam. International judges were not judging U.S. nationals. The judges must judge what they see, not what they think some other phantom panel of judges might do.

Zhang and Flatt would have moved ahead of Alissa, deservedly based on how Alissa skated and how Rachael/Caroline skated.

That is the whole question. Based on how they skated, should Rachael and Caroline have been placed ahead of Alissa?

In my opinion, Rachael for sure. Caroline, I guess I could go either way. I thought Caroline beat Alissa fairly soundly in the LP, but there was still that SP lead to overcome.

(But my favorite LP performance was Mirai's, so what do i know?

)

Mathman · Mar 30, 2009

LeCygne said:
Even if Alissa had indeed deservedly won the National championship, dare I say the rule could have been broken for the sake of 3 spots?

Nope.

It's written into the Constitution and Bylaws. Lawsuit city. Like when they tried (unsucessfully) to kick Tonya Harding off the Olympic team so Michelle Kwan could go.

R.D. · Mar 30, 2009

Or better yet, get rid of the rule altogether.

I think they're doing just that- at least for next year.

Mathman · Mar 30, 2009

Red Dog said:
I think they're doing just that- at least for next year.

For the Olympics, not worlds.

The reason why is, for the Olympics the big cheese is the USOC/IOC, not the USFSA/ISU.

If the USFSA announced that the winner of U.S. Nationals automatically made the Olympic team, then U.S. Nationals could be declared an "Olympic qualifying event," which would allow the USOC to take it over from the USFSA.

As long as it is just the "U.S. Figure Skating Championship," the USFSA has sole jurisdiction.

(I bet they send U.S. Nationals #1 and #2 to the Olympics, regardless of other considerations.)

R.D. · Mar 30, 2009

LeCygne said:
You make a decision based on what you know so far. You have more information on Alissa, so you have a better idea of how she'll do, and it's not favorable. You have less information on Caroline, but what you do have isn't half bad, so why not take a chance?

At least with Caroline, you can say you didn't know. With Alissa, okay raise your hand if you were genuinely surprised with her performance.

I agree with you. However, because Alyssa was national champ, USFS hadn't a choice (they had to send her). So ultimately it falls on the judging in the Nationals LP. Was it right? That's up for debate.

R.D. · Mar 30, 2009

Mathman said:
For the Olympics, not worlds.

The reason why is, for the Olympics the big cheese is the USOC/IOC, not the USFSA/ISU.

If the USFSA announced that the winner of U.S. Nationals automatically made the Olympic team, then U.S. Nationals would could be declared an "Olympic qualifying event," which would allow the USOC to take it over from the USFSA.

As long as it is just the "U.S. Figure Skating Championship," the USFSA has sole jurisdiction.

(I bet they send U.S. Nationals #1 and #2 to the Olympics, regardless of other considerations.)

Ah, that makes sense. I didn't know that. SO it's all politics then. Hmph

What would the potential fallout be, though, if USFS decided then to forego Nationals in an Olympic year and just designate it an "Olympic Trials" event?

This turned out to be a very bad year for Alissa.

evangeline

museksk8r

Alicja

museksk8r

LeCygne

Andalusia

Kwanford Wife

kittyjake5

R.D.

Mathman

LeCygne

bekalc

Mathman

LeCygne

Mathman

Mathman

R.D.

Mathman

R.D.

R.D.

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