Brian Joubert - coaching change

Danale · Apr 1, 2009

Spun Silver said:
From the sound of this interview Brian is the injured party and the coach is an a....

Well, I was really surprised when I read JC's quotes as well, and I agree that the response is not a proper one.
That being said, I don't think we know all the details in order to put the blame on someone. One of the hardest thing a person can do is look at a situation from the perspective of the other guy. Reading between the lines I understand there was pressure (to say the least) on Brian to leave JC from his mom and DG. That cannot be pleasant and productive enviroment to coach in. Perhaps this is what JC is refering to, and not a personal attack on Brian.
And I can only assume that JC left cause he knew he's going to be dumped anyway (and this is also said in the interview). It's like a relationship

)), when you break up with someone after a fight you might say bad things about each other, but then you come down and remember it wasn't all bad. They are all just venting a little, which is understood.

Joesitz said:
Has it been confirmed that Brian's coach ordered him to change part of his program?

Yep, Brian confirmed it in one of his interviews.

antmanb · Apr 1, 2009

Spun Silver said:
From the sound of this interview Brian is the injured party and the coach is an a.... well, MM won't let me say that kind of thing here. Seriously, what kind of coach talks like this ("I'm not some peon, some little sh** [MM again] consultant who has to spend his life in Poitiers in really tough conditions....")? No, he's the great super-coach, who gets a high-rise in Paris where ice is warm and cozy!

True enough but I think those comments from Simmond are more about the French Federation bleating on about the fact that he isn't good enough to coach Brian and Brian should be with someone with more experience of coaching champions....and then suggesting Annique Dumont who never coached anyone to World or Olympic Gold. I'd be pretty pissed off too if i was Simmond.

However, it's clear that he and Brian were not working out any more - to not believe your student about an injury shows a complete lack of trust between the two and that surely means the relationship's over.

Spun Silver said:
I feel very bad for Brian. To have your coach publicly dump you after a bad skate at Worlds has to be traumatic. I hope he can find the golden lining of this cloud.

PS: I think Brian should come to Hackensack (it's only 45 mins from me)... where he can take his shirt off...

Ant

antmanb · Apr 1, 2009

Joesitz said:
Has it been confirmed that Brian's coach ordered him to change part of his program? That's kind of a dumb order from a coach and a dumb skater to take the order. Come hell or high water, it is the skater who is on the ice.

Danale said:
Yep, Brian confirmed it in one of his interviews.

Really? I thought Brian had confirmed that it was Simond's idea to change the LP and that he agreed the LP wasn't working.

Like Joe says i'd be surprised if Simond ordered him to change the program. Brian (and certainly his mother) doesn't strike me as the kind of person who would just agree to do something he didn't wasnt to do, or at least agree with the suggestion.

Clearly there were problems between coach and skater - that much is clear as Buttercup points out - their body language and lack of discussion in the Kiss and Cry at both Euros and Worlds shows this. It does not surprise me in the slightest that the FFSG are out to vilify someone for Brian's performance nad that is seemingly Simond.

Personally i think that this is pretty much the end of the dreams of Gold for Brian - changing coach and possibly training country 11 months before the Olympic games will be too much for him.

Ant

bekalc · Apr 1, 2009

Personally i think that this is pretty much the end of the dreams of Gold for Brian - changing coach and possibly training country 11 months before the Olympic games will be too much for him.

Huh? Shizuka switched coaches and went to another country to train maybe 2 months? before the Olympics and won.

Yagudin switched to Tarasova and moved to another country to train and defended his world title and improved leaps and bounds.

It just depends.

Danale · Apr 1, 2009

antmanb said:
Really? I thought Brian had confirmed that it was Simond's idea to change the LP and that he agreed the LP wasn't working.

Sorry. I gueess I wasn't clear. He didn't say he was ordered, of course, Brian is a person capable of making his own decision (I hope!). To be precise, he said that it was JC idea, like 5 minutes before he went on the ice.
I guess that this kind of comment from your coach is getting you to think and second-guess yourself even if deep down you know it's not the right thing to do.

ETA: I see we're all synced regarding him taking the Tshirt off

Buttercup · Apr 1, 2009

antmanb said:
Clearly there were problems between coach and skater - that much is clear as Buttercup points out - their body language and lack of discussion in the Kiss and Cry at both Euros and Worlds shows this. It does not surprise me in the slightest that the FFSG are out to vilify someone for Brian's performance nad that is seemingly Simond.

Personally i think that this is pretty much the end of the dreams of Gold for Brian - changing coach and possibly training country 11 months before the Olympic games will be too much for him.

bekalc said:
Huh? Shizuka switched coaches and went to another country to train maybe 2 months? before the Olympics and won.

Yagudin switched to Tarasova and moved to another country to train and defended his world title and improved leaps and bounds.

It just depends.

I agree, bekalc, that this is not an automatic end to Brian's Olympic goals. But I do share Ant's concern, because to me this is very much like 2005: a disappointment at Worlds, a messy coaching change, and lots of pressure going into an Olympic year. Brian is older and wiser - but how much wiser? We'll see once he makes a decision about coaching and choreo. I liked the Orser suggestion but I'm not sure how realistic that one is. And choreo will be just as big a headache because he can't just go to Lori Nichol, he needs someone who will play to his strengths. I hesitate to say this, but maybe he should bury the hatchet with Morozov and see if they can come up with something good together. If he needs music help, though, he should call me, because I have lots of good ideas! No need for him to be shirtless - he looks too much like my younger brother for me to think of him in that way :biggrin:

.

Ant, someone on another forum suggested you could see problems between Joubert and JCS going back at least to CoR. I looked at the video - that person is right. Brian's SP at CoR was a huge thing for him after the debacle at TEB, he skated great, TaT was in raptures, and JCS just sat there looking glum while Joubert seemed to tune out half of what he was saying - if not more. Since Brian claims their problems go back at least to the blade issues last fall, I guess trouble was brewing even then.

For three straight years JCS tinkered with Brian's LP going into Worlds. It was the right thing to do in 2007 - Brian had been injured and a cautious program was the right choice then. But they should have thrown caution to the wind with Brian in 6th place last season, and there was no reason not to skate a more difficult LP in LA. Not even the second quad - for instance, why were the combos not maxed? If a coach feels a skater can't risk his or her strongest program unless they're 15 points clear of the field, that to me says the coach does not believe in his/her skater. And that's not good for either end of the partnership.

Dodhiyel · Apr 1, 2009

bekalc said:
Huh? Shizuka switched coaches and went to another country to train maybe 2 months? before the Olympics and won.

Yagudin switched to Tarasova and moved to another country to train and defended his world title and improved leaps and bounds.

It just depends.

I agree with you, bekalc. Thank you.

The Shizuka example is especially relevant, because the coaching change was so close to the Olympics, and the change it produced in her was marvelous. Before she left Tarasova, I remember seeing her skate, live, in a rink show here in the USA. Alexei Yagudin and Sergey Sakhnovsky escorted her to the rink at one point, each holding one of her hands, gallantly. She seemed depressed, and her skate was so bad, so utterly lacking in spirit and technical content, that I was unable to make myself stand up for her. I felt so badly for her. I did not know what to think, except that she was obviously unhappy in her training conditions. She had won Worlds in 2004, but in 2005, had slipped to ninth place. Then she went to Morozov, and won the 2006 Olympics, skating beautifully, as if stress-free.

I very much believe that the coach-skater relationship itself is vital for the success of the skater, and relationships can change over time. While it may seem admirable when a skater stays with the same coach for a long time, that is not always going to work in the skater's best interests, especially when the scoring system keeps changing. Sometimes, a coach does not keep up with the changes fast enough, for example. Coaches and choreographers now have to know how to play the system; they have to do their homework, or they are letting their skaters down. If they do not have time to keep up, then they need to have assistants who can do it for them. The Canadian coaches appeared to be the first to apply themselves to studying the new system pragmatically, and their skaters thus benefitted. The federations of Russia and the U.S. dragged their feet, still using 6.0 in their national championships, when they should already have switched to the new IJS (CoP).

In the end, a skater is on their own. They have to make the best choices they can of where to study, and with whom, if they want to compete with maximum effectiveness internationally. Sometimes their federations let them down or even unintentionally sabotage them. Sometimes their coaches do not have enough time for them; Adam Rippon, for example, says he is much happier now, since he changed coaches, and I think it is no coincidence that he won Jr. Worlds.

In conclusion, I think that it is the singles skater and none other that is on the ice, in the act of competing. The romance of that situation is what enthralls me: one person, alone, facing the challenge. Because of this, I think a singles skater is entitled to make any changes in their training or representation that they think benefits them.

Buttercup · Apr 1, 2009

Over at the Passion Patinage forums, someone reported that at the press conference yesterday, DG was pushing for Orser and Brian said he's not comfortable with the idea of a North American coach and wants to work with Tarasova, but to spend only part of his time in Moscow - like one week per month (not sure what he intends to do the other three weeks). He also wants to keep his SP - can't say I'm surprised.

We'll see who prevails

.

kittyjake5 · Apr 1, 2009

visaliakid said:
Here is the Google translated page:

http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=en&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lequipe.fr%2FSki%2Fbreves2009%2F20090331_092727_joubert-se-separe-de-son-entraineur.html&sl=fr&tl=en

Thank you.

zandor · Apr 1, 2009

Over at the Passion Patinage forums, someone reported that at the press conference yesterday, DG was pushing for Orser and Brian said he's not comfortable with the idea of a North American coach and wants to work with Tarasova, but to spend only part of his time in Moscow - like one week per month (not sure what he intends to do the other three weeks). He also wants to keep his SP - can't say I'm surprised.

He wants to spends the other 3 weeks with his beloved maman J....

antmanb · Apr 1, 2009

Buttercup said:
I agree, bekalc, that this is not an automatic end to Brian's Olympic goals. But I do share Ant's concern, because to me this is very much like 2005: a disappointment at Worlds, a messy coaching change, and lots of pressure going into an Olympic year. Brian is older and wiser - but how much wiser? We'll see once he makes a decision about coaching and choreo. I liked the Orser suggestion but I'm not sure how realistic that one is. And choreo will be just as big a headache because he can't just go to Lori Nichol, he needs someone who will play to his strengths. I hesitate to say this, but maybe he should bury the hatchet with Morozov and see if they can come up with something good together. If he needs music help, though, he should call me, because I have lots of good ideas! No need for him to be shirtless - he looks too much like my younger brother for me to think of him in that way .

I agree - tell him to get over to your house and start listening to CDs! Maybe you could get credentials as part of his team and go to Vancouver with him :rofl:

I do fear though, that 2005 is replaying itself here fro Brian though.

Ant

Buttercup · Apr 1, 2009

zandor said:
He wants to spends the other 3 weeks with his beloved maman J....

Come one, you know that where he goes, she goes. DG was apparently willing to pay for both of them to go to Toronto. Re the other 3 weeks, there has been a Laurent Depouilly rumor... or maybe TatT will send out an assistant, isn't that what she did with Mao?

Seriously, though, I don't see how it's anyone's business if Joubert feels more comfortable with his mom advising him. By all accounts she often is right about things (e.g. encouraging him to go back to The Matrix back in 2005-6). And I know plenty of people who didn't go live on their own/with their romantic partners until their mid to late twenties, so I don't really see anything wrong with it.

Ant, I would be more than happy to advise a lot of skaters, and I can promise you none of them will skate to:
Carmen
Blues for Klook (ugh, I hate it like Gargamel hates the smurfs)
Tosca
Moonlight Sonata (pretty, but enough already)
R&J
Swan Lake and The Swan
Rachmaninoff of any kind
Any tango, unless they are capable of interpreting it
The Mission
Malaguena
Spartacus
Four Seasons
Schehrezade (Yu-Na's should be the last one)
et al.

And you know you want that to happen! :laugh:

I might allow the occasional Nessun Dorma. Sorry - I still think it's pretty.

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 1, 2009

It seems to me that most fans in this Forum never find fault with competitors, but do blame outside influences especially the coaches of competitors for poor skating on THE day.

Whatever there was between Brian and JC, he (Brian) had to have to noticed (or hear about) the so-so skate of Patrick. This should have put Brian in better mode, and no reason to change program. Patrick was his biggest rival in that comp.

Nobody, in this Forum, or elsewere would have imagined Evan being a major challenge to Brian. Unfortunately, Evan skated just before Brian and he skated to a huge ovation -not only in his own country but in his own city!

It put Brian into a quandry. The change in program was to safeguard his expected 1st place. Now, it seemed to Brian that the least expected for challengng him was now challenging him.

Should he change his program just for Evan? or not. It was a gamble to fight off that new challenger at the last minute. The Americans wanted an Oly medal, gold if possible. The decision was made and it was made by Brian, I believe.

BTW - I never did follow the choreography. How much change was there between the two presentations? What if he didn't changed the program, would he have skated bettter?

Danale · Apr 1, 2009

Joesitz said:
BTW - I never did follow the choreography. How much change was there between the two presentations? What if he didn't changed the program, would he have skated bettter?

IIRC he started to change the jumps layout completely and stepped out the 3A. Once he did that, he seemed completely out of touch with the program, which effected the performance of the other elements.
I think he would have skated better, cause he finally seemed ready physically and mentally. It really seemed like it wasn't nerves, but complete lack of concentration - a direct result of changing the program on the fly.
Would he have won? Possibly, but he could easily take the silver.

Dodhiyel · Apr 1, 2009

Joesitz said:
.... and no reason to change program....The decision was made and it was made by Brian, I believe....QUOTE]

Joe, I got the opposite impression. The coach suggested the change; Brian made the change. This is the same coach who complains to the public that people on that team are not listening to him. This does not compute; on the contrary, the problem seems to have been that Brian *did* listen to him, by changing his program just before skating. If a skater cannot trust the advice of his coach, then whose advice can he trust? Skaters need coaches precisely for their advice. In the heat of competition, it is very hard for the skater to consider all factors objectively; it is up to the coach to do that for him. If their advice turns out to be harmful, then the skater needs to change coaches.

Moreover, if the time comes when the skater is having a physical problem, and their coach does not believe that it is physical, then regardless of who is right, they cannot continue to work together comfortably. Brian did not really badmouth his coach; he simply said that his coach had not believed him. In my book, that is reason enough for splitsville, no matter who the coach is or who the skater is. Trust is everything.

Simond, on the other hand, spoke with rancor. I think he knew he had goofed, and was making an advance defensive strike.

Ptichka · Apr 1, 2009

Joesitz said:
It seems to me that most fans in this Forum never find fault with competitors, but do blame outside influences especially the coaches of competitors for poor skating on THE day.

Hmmm... I think rather it's the matter of a skater's reputation. Brian has a reputation for being disciplined and hard working, so his coaches get the blame. Back when Cohen was a competitive skater, OTOH, she was always the one blamed, and her coaches were always presented as victims. We just see what we want to see...

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 1, 2009

Dodhiyel said:
Joesitz said:

.... and no reason to change program....The decision was made and it was made by Brian, I believe....QUOTE]

Joe, I got the opposite impression. The coach suggested the change; Brian made the change. This is the same coach who complains to the public that people on that team are not listening to him. This does not compute; on the contrary, the problem seems to have been that Brian *did* listen to him, by changing his program just before skating. If a skater cannot trust the advice of his coach, then whose advice can he trust? Skaters need coaches precisely for their advice. In the heat of competition, it is very hard for the skater to consider all factors objectively; it is up to the coach to do that for him. If their advice turns out to be harmful, then the skater needs to change coaches.

Moreover, if the time comes when the skater is having a physical problem, and their coach does not believe that it is physical, then regardless of who is right, they cannot continue to work together comfortably. Brian did not really badmouth his coach; he simply said that his coach had not believed him. In my book, that is reason enough for splitsville, no matter who the coach is or who the skater is. Trust is everything.

Simond, on the other hand, spoke with rancor. I think he knew he had goofed, and was making an advance defensive strike.

Click to expand...

Dodiyell, I am not too sure all this is vital as to his less than expected performance I remember him in Sweden when the Jumbothon showed him back stage semi angry, imo, about Buttle's ovation. He later complained that male skaters should be required to do Quads, and he did have an exceptionally good performance.

I have no vested interest in either Brian or Evan. Just trying to understand his reason(s) for switching coaches.

Brian is not new to the Sport and had much experience in Worlds competition. I don't think he was so obedient to the coach. For me, he made a poor decision to change his program, which from what I read, was not a big change except of one jump for another. His biggest competitor faulted, and the least expected competitor skated his best which in past competitions Brian had no problem in winning over him. I can not put blame on anyone. It was just one of those things, and there is a next year to rectify any problems. He was capable to win LA Worlds, and he will be capable to win the Olys. We'll see.

Ptitchka - There were hordes of complaints about Robin Wagner losing 2004 Worlds for Sasha.

jennylovskt · Apr 2, 2009

Why do some people say that Brian is difficult to coach? Any examples?

Buttercup · Apr 2, 2009

jennylovskt said:
Why do some people say that Brian is difficult to coach? Any examples?

Jenny, I'm not sure it's Brian himself so much as the people around him (as Kunstrijdster noted). Both Didier Gailhaguet - the president of the French federation - and Joubert's mother, Raymonde, are very much involved in his career and training. Brian still lives at home with his mother (I understand his parents are seperated) so she's quite influential. Not everyone wants to deal with all that. According to Wikipedia, Brian trained with Veronique Guyon for many years - from a really young age until around 2003 - and at some point she wanted to stop coaching. From then on, he's had much less stability with coaches and choreographers.

JCS did not have any experience coaching elite skaters AFAIK. After Worlds last year, there was some discussion about how neither he nor Brian appear to understand the math for CoP program construction. I believe this is correct: in an interview yesterday or the day before, Simond said that his tactics were fine, that up until 40 seconds from the end Joubert was the World Champion, and that he was the one who fell. The last part is correct. The rest is not: even before the fall, Brian was not maximizing his points and might not have done enough to win. The fall just sealed it. Simond did a lot of good work with Joubert but if he couldn't figure out how to have him do programs that maximize his potential points-wise, he was not doing his job as well as he could.

antmanb · Apr 2, 2009

Buttercup said:
Ant, I would be more than happy to advise a lot of skaters, and I can promise you none of them will skate to:
Carmen
Blues for Klook (ugh, I hate it like Gargamel hates the smurfs)
Tosca
Moonlight Sonata (pretty, but enough already)
R&J
Swan Lake and The Swan
Rachmaninoff of any kind
Any tango, unless they are capable of interpreting it
The Mission
Malaguena
Spartacus
Four Seasons
Schehrezade (Yu-Na's should be the last one)
et al.

And you know you want that to happen!

I might allow the occasional Nessun Dorma. Sorry - I still think it's pretty.

Agreed with all of your list but NOOOOOOOOOOOOO to Nessun Dorma , no, no and NO...you hear me? :rofl:

Ant

Brian Joubert - coaching change

Danale

antmanb

antmanb

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Danale

Buttercup

Dodhiyel

Buttercup

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zandor

antmanb

Buttercup

Joesitz (RIP)

Danale

Dodhiyel

Ptichka

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Joesitz (RIP)

jennylovskt

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