World Standing Bonus 2008-9

Buttercup · Apr 2, 2009

Lesson learned: it's always a good idea to do senior B events!

After winning a grand total of zero events this season, Tomas Verner is first in the bonus standings and will pocket $45,000. Chan is second, Lysacek third.

The bonus winners in the other disciplines do make more sense.

Medusa · Apr 2, 2009

Oh, look! Yuko and Sasha are third among the pairs. Good for them.

The Verner thing doesn't make sense at all, especially because he didn't land more than 3 Triples or something like that at those B-events.

Buttercup · Apr 2, 2009

Yeah, the only thing Verner might have been best at this season was popped jumps (also, he's right up there in cuteness

).

Seriously, someone needs to rethink how they calculate that thing. Two years ago the guy who swept every event finished second because he couldn't go to the Universiade, and now this. It's ludicrous. Patrick Chan had the overall best results this season, and even if he does annoy me, he should have been first.

figuristka · Apr 2, 2009

While its a shame the bonus is not given to the best skater throughout the season, Iam happy for Thomas. Not his fault if they work it out this way. Iam sure he could use the extra cash more than Patrick or Evan. Of course i have no idea if he is quite well off or not but i would imagine Evan being world champion, and Patrick with being the silver medalist and having Olympics coming up in his own country they will both to well in that respect.

Ptichka · Apr 2, 2009

Buttercup said:
Seriously, someone needs to rethink how they calculate that thing.

I disagree, though they should perhaps be renamed. Worlds Standings are not about who the best skater is; they are about who helps out ISU the most. Verner did 2 B events each of the past three seasons - so yes, this certainly helps ISU sell tickets to those "boring" events, so it does make sense for them to be rewarding him with this money.

Buttercup · Apr 2, 2009

Ptichka said:
I disagree, though they should perhaps be renamed. Worlds Standings are not about who the best skater is; they are about who helps out ISU the most. Verner did 2 B events each of the past three seasons - so yes, this certainly helps ISU sell tickets to those "boring" events, so it does make sense for them to be rewarding him with this money.

If the difference had been that he'd won two senior Bs, then it makes sense. But to me the World Standings should mean quantity and quality. Verner finished off the podium at one of these and 3rd in the other. His results this season are 4th (Nebelhorn), 3rd (KSM), 3rd (CoC), 2nd (CoR), 4th (GPF), 6th (EC) and 4th (Worlds), and they simply don't justify this - much as I enjoy his skating, and even if he does need the money more than the North Americans.

Hsuhs · Apr 2, 2009

Buttercup said:
Two years ago the guy who swept every event finished second because he couldn't go to the Universiade, and now this.

Yeah, it's not easy to skate at that level and to go to college, is it.
Which reminds me, Verner is a student too, could use that money. Have no problem with that.

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 2, 2009

Buttercup said:
Lesson learned: it's always a good idea to do senior B events!

After winning a grand total of zero events this season, Tomas Verner is first in the bonus standings and will pocket $45,000. Chan is second, Lysacek third.

The bonus winners in the other disciplines do make more sense.

Now tell me, which continent these "B" events are being held for easy travel distance. Cheers for Werner but allocades? Did he travel outside Europe?

Wrlmy · Apr 2, 2009

Joesitz said:
Now tell me, which continent these "B" events are being held for easy travel distance. Cheers for Werner but allocades? Did he travel outside Europe?

No, but USFSA, JSF, Skate Canada, etc. don't send their top tier skaters to "B" events, so it wouldn't make much difference even if those events were held in NA and Asia.

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 2, 2009

Wrlmy said:
No, but USFSA, JSF, Skate Canada, etc. don't send their top tier skaters to "B" events, so it wouldn't make much difference even if those events were held in NA and Asia.

There is no reason for sending top tier US/Canada skaters on long trips, so those countries unless there is a 'prestige' involved.will by pass these events I would be more impressed if Michal Brezina won this trophy. I think the definition of 'B' is not top level. Does Brian Joubert partake in these competitions?

On a similar note: Should Senior skaters partake in the Junior World Championships? I know Werner did not but many did. In fact it was difficult to come up with which Junior skater actually won the championship.

Mathman · Apr 2, 2009

Ptichka said:
I disagree, though they should perhaps be renamed. Worlds Standings are not about who the best skater is; they are about who helps out ISU the most.

I agree with this assessment. In fact, I think the ISU came right out and said that one of the reasons for this prize is to create incentive for top skaters outside of Europe to partipate in Four Continents.

I guess it worked. The last two Four Continents Championships had strong fields.

Buttercup · Apr 3, 2009

Hsuhs said:
Yeah, it's not easy to skate at that level and to go to college, is it.
Which reminds me, Verner is a student too, could use that money. Have no problem with that.

Aren't many of the skaters students? I know many of the French and Japanese skaters are in various university programs. Not necessarily full-time, but at least in part-time programs?

My point, re Verner or anyone else, is that it's one thing to use results from B events as tiebreakers and another to assign them a lot of weight, regardless of the actual result. The bonus should encourage skaters to enter more events but I don't see why it should be given for not performing particularly well at those events. Certainly if there's an event that is only open to some skaters it shouldn't count for that much (Universiade) - but that has apparently been changed since 2007.

I'm sure many skaters could use some extra money, so I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

Hsuhs · Apr 3, 2009

Buttercup said:
Aren't many of the skaters students? I know many of the French and Japanese skaters are in various university programs. Not necessarily full-time, but at least in part-time programs?

Many skaters study? I don't know how many exactly. Practically every Japanese skater is a university student or is in high-school. Of the French skaters I only know Preaubert follows hotel bussiness. Taking acting classes and going to parties don't qualify, IMO.

Buttercup said:
I don't see why it should be given for not performing particularly well at those events. Certainly if there's an event that is only open to some skaters it shouldn't count for that much (Universiade) - but that has apparently been changed since 2007.

B-events are early in season, sure ppl don't perform their best. But they can be very usuful points- and experience-wise. For instance Oda went to 2 this past season to gather points he missed.

Buttercup said:
I'm sure many skaters could use some extra money, so I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

I don't see why rules reg the bonus as they are now need to be changed. Who deserves those 45,000 the most? Lysacek, b/c he's a world champ? Abbott for winning GPF? Oda for winning 2 B-events?

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 3, 2009

Kunstrijdster said:
I think for the top skaters it not so much a question of prestige but of getting the opportunity of some early season competitive experience. For Verner one can say that, considering that he trains in Obersdorf, Nebelhorn and KSM are natural choices for preparing for the main season.

The North American Skaters also have small events where they can prepare. Liberty Open for example, surely there are more.

And yes Brian also does smaller competitions. The French Masters and the Coupe International the Nice (he pulled out of that one though). But the Coupe is an international event and the field is very varied as well. Just look at the pairs winner: Kawaguchi/Smirnov and the runner up: Katz / Lynch.

There is nothing wrong with top skaters doing smaller events in preparation for the bigger ones. This happens in every sport. Although I can tell (from my own sad experience) it is very dissappointing for the lower level athletes to always have to face the odd elite athlete. :sheesh:

I'm not speaking of run throughs at small events but of using the results to give out awards. I do not know if the ISU considers Liberty in the rankings. Certainly not Middle Atlantics. The Coupe as an internatiional event is ok, but should YuNa travel all the way for that comp? Not much participants outside of Europe.

Buttercup · Apr 3, 2009

Hsuhs said:
Who deserves those 45,000 the most? Lysacek, b/c he's a world champ? Abbott for winning GPF? Oda for winning 2 B-events?

Of the men, Patrick Chan: two GP wins, won 4CC (overscored, but the rightful winner against a strong field) and was 2nd at Worlds. Skated badly at GPF but otherwise, a very good season - and none of the other people at GPF did better than him overall.

Many skaters study? I don't know how many exactly. Practically every Japanese skater is a university student or is in high-school. Of the French skaters I only know Preaubert follows hotel bussiness. Taking acting classes and going to parties don't qualify, IMO.

OT - Yannick Ponsero is studying physiotherapy and I think Fabian Bourzat is, too (Ponsero's goal is to become a sports physiotherapist), Nathalie Pechalat is a management student and is apparently doing/did an internship in Moscow parallel to her skating. So not exactly the subjects of choice for someone looking to party. Alissa Czisny, per her ISU bio, is majoring in international studies, Russian and French. Carolina Kostner is studying drama and art. Tomas I'm not sure about - but it's not a party major AFAIK.

Considering the number of people at Universiade, some of whom are quite good, I'd say yes, a lot of skaters do manage to combine school and skating. Of the high school-aged skaters, I know Rachael Flatt is taking some pretty demanding classes, IIRC with the goal of going to medical school.

You're right that people may not be at their best early in the season - but surely that applies to the entire field? Tomas just didn't skate that well, as he's been popping jumps at every event he enters. I think Tomas can be brilliant - but his results this season were not.

Joe, I don't believe any of the early season events in the US count towards the bonus.

dorispulaski · Apr 3, 2009

The US, Canadian & Asian summer events don't count toward the bonus. And I think that's wrong. If the current competitions aren't significant enough, at least one (or even 2) new Senior B competitions should be in North America or Asia each.

Liberty is a huge competition, with lots of competitors from Canada, as well as the US, and some competitors from other countries,too. So is MidAtlantics. The complex has both Olympic and NHL sized ice. There is not a lot of seating, though.

It's a crime that Lake Placid International Dance Competition, which is very international (as its name suggests) is not an ISU event.

And I'd like to see Indy Pairs make the list, too.

Ptichka · Apr 3, 2009

Doris, that's an excellent point! I wonder why USFSA doesn't flex its muscle at the ISU to get this - doesn't seem like it would be all that controversial.

chuckm · Apr 3, 2009

Just as a point of information: the Universiade DOES NOT grant ISU "B" International points because it is restricted to college students.

I agree that the ISU should grant "B" International status to Liberty, Midlantics and Lake Placid Ice Dance. I think if it did, there would be even more international participation in these events.

One reason they probably won't is that these events don't take place during the regular season. Another is that ISU judges would have to be brought in to judge those events, and who would pay for their lodging and meals? The clubs would have to charge spectators a hefty fee to watch the events, and except for Lake Placid, the club facilities consist of frigid bench seating.

Tonichelle · Apr 3, 2009

with the sponsorships that Evan and Patrick are able to land, though... it makes sense that someone like Tomas is given the opportunity to fund his skating this way...

just a thought.

Buttercup · Apr 3, 2009

chuckm said:
Just as a point of information: the Universiade DOES NOT grant ISU "B" International points because it is restricted to college students.

I agree that the ISU should grant "B" International status to Liberty, Midlantics and Lake Placid Ice Dance. I think if it did, there would be even more international participation in these events.

You're right about the Universiade - the rules for calculating the bonus were changed after 2007, when the Universiade did make a difference in the standings.

I agree with everyone who wrote that senior Bs should be accessible to everyone, with no unfair advantage to European skaters. I'm surprised the Japanese federation hasn't set up an early season event in Japan to get their skaters points and practice.

World Standing Bonus 2008-9

Buttercup

Medusa

Buttercup

figuristka

Ptichka

Forum translator

Buttercup

Hsuhs

Joesitz (RIP)

Wrlmy

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

Buttercup

Hsuhs

Joesitz (RIP)

Buttercup

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Ptichka

Forum translator

chuckm

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

Buttercup

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