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Thread: Is Yu-Na more similar to Katarina rather than Michelle?

  1. #46
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soogar View Post
    If I am not mistaken, Yu Na did a double axel in her LP. With Mao being the only woman who does a triple axel, why would I get disturbed if Yu Na doesn't have one?
    She did three 2A's, two 3Toes, two 3Lutzs and a 3(F)lip. The amount of 2As in programs really bothers me, I think they should put the 2A under the Zayak rule. Do it once in a program - you can repeat two Triples, if you do it twice, you can only repeat one Triple.

    People are always talking about the possibilily of instating a bonus for skaters, who complete all Triples. But especially among the ladies - including the 2A in the Zayak rules would ensure that they try more Triples.

  2. #47
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soogar View Post
    A lot of ladies have issues with the lutz- and ladies with a true lutz have issues with the flip. So I think they should just stick it in there try to make it happen.
    I agree, and i think the skaters that spend a great deal of time and effort fixing their falwed technique like Joannie really deserve high praise.

    Quote Originally Posted by soogar View Post
    I think it's strange that she has problems with the salchow and the loop- I think she had problems with those jumps in her Worlds program as well- but overall her program had a few mistakes. Those are beginning triples for most skaters. Either way there is a lack of sureness in her skating. I'm just not into her skating.
    Mao doesn't have any problems with the loop jump -it's one of her best triples though she does have a tendancy to get hit with under-rotations when she uses it as the 2nd half of a 3/3 - a lot like Miki does too. As far as i'm aware Mao doesn't have a problem with the salchow she's included it successfully in many competitions, though she didn't use it at worlds (but she did re-jig a number of her jumps for the worlds LP).

    Quote Originally Posted by soogar View Post
    IIf I am not mistaken, Yu Na did a double axel in her LP. With Mao being the only woman who does a triple axel, why would I get disturbed if Yu Na doesn't have one?
    It was more that you said:
    I think that most of my puzzlement is directed towards Mao and not Yu Na. Mao doesn't even have a full set of triples.
    and i was just surprise since Mao (and maybe Yukari) are actually the only women in the world with a full set of triples. Even if you ignore the triple axel, Yuna does not do a loop, so i was just surprised by your comment.

    Ant

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post



    Mao doesn't have any problems with the loop jump -it's one of her best triples though she does have a tendancy to get hit with under-rotations when she uses it as the 2nd half of a 3/3 - a lot like Miki does too. As far as i'm aware Mao doesn't have a problem with the salchow she's included it successfully in many competitions, though she didn't use it at worlds (but she did re-jig a number of her jumps for the worlds LP).


    Ant
    I can't keep track of what all the ladies are and are not doing. I think it's the 3 toe that Mao neglects to do. It seems that all of her combos are 3 loop, 2 loop ad nauseam.

    I think there needs to be a Zayak rule with the kinds of doubles the girls use to get credit for their combos and the double axels. I know they are going for the points but they are at the level where they should be able to mix it up with toe jumps and loops. JMO

    I miss the old days where the top ladies did all the jumps through to the lutz. Maybe Sasha will bring that back when she returns.. or maybe she will just leave the lutz out and do the flip.
    Last edited by soogar; 06-10-2009 at 11:29 AM.

  4. #49
    On the Ice poloska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soogar View Post
    I can't keep track of what all the ladies are and are not doing. I think it's the 3 toe that Mao neglects to do. It seems that all of her combos are 3 loop, 2 loop ad nauseam.

    I think there needs to be a Zayak rule with the kinds of doubles the girls use to get credit for their combos and the double axels. I know they are going for the points but they are at the level where they should be able to mix it up with toe jumps and loops. JMO

    I miss the old days where the top ladies did all the jumps through to the lutz. Maybe Sasha will bring that back when she returns.. or maybe she will just leave the lutz out and do the flip.
    Combo with loop is harder then with toe. Mao has her toe, she did a 3f-3 t combo at 2008 Worlds and this year she included it as a single jump, she doesn't have any problems with this jump. And I agree with antmanb, Mao is the skater with full set of triple jumps.

  5. #50
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soogar View Post
    I can't keep track of what all the ladies are and are not doing. I think it's the 3 toe that Mao neglects to do. It seems that all of her combos are 3 loop, 2 loop ad nauseam.
    Mao has gone through several cycles. It was two or three years ago where her LP looked like 3Lo, 3Lo+2Lo, 3Lo+2Lo+2Lo, etc. In those days her problem jump was the toe-loop. She often got dinged for pre-rotation (toe Axel.)

    Now, in her all-time best performance (over 200 points at the 2009 World team trophy) she did 3A, 3A+2T, 3F+2Lo+2Lo, 3Lo, 3F+2Lo, 3T, 2A. No Slachow and no Lutz. (She tried a Lutz in the SP at Worlds but popped it.) Her SP at WTT was 3A+2T, 3F, 2A.

    So out of ten jumping passes she did 5 Axels and 3 flips. Who can blame her? That's how to score 200 points in the CoP.

    (Off topic -- I would recommend disallowing the three-jump combos that end in 2Lo+2Lo or 2T+2Lo. They are chpreography-killers, bringing the program to a dead stop.)

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by poloska View Post
    Combo with loop is harder then with toe. Mao has her toe, she did a 3f-3 t combo at 2008 Worlds and this year she included it as a single jump, she doesn't have any problems with this jump. And I agree with antmanb, Mao is the skater with full set of triple jumps.
    Mao doesn't have a full set of triples... what she does have is a lovely triple axle - when she lands it...

    Quote Originally Posted by soogar View Post
    I can't keep track of what all the ladies are and are not doing. I think it's the 3 toe that Mao neglects to do. It seems that all of her combos are 3 loop, 2 loop ad nauseam.

    I think there needs to be a Zayak rule with the kinds of doubles the girls use to get credit for their combos and the double axels. I know they are going for the points but they are at the level where they should be able to mix it up with toe jumps and loops. JMO

    I miss the old days where the top ladies did all the jumps through to the lutz. Maybe Sasha will bring that back when she returns.. or maybe she will just leave the lutz out and do the flip.
    I couldn't agree more... I understand the idea behind racking up the points, but I do get sick of hearing skaters touted as the Greatest of All Time! when they barely have five jumps per program and those aren't clean. No, skating is not just about the jumps but I would love to see a program that plays to a skater's individual strength vs. watching these girls fling their arms around while spining on one toe in a spiral position.

    One thing I always appreciated about Worlds was the opportunity to see so many great skating styles showcased on the ice: Irina's strength, Sasha's ballerina thing, DivaKwara's beautiful line and of course Michelle's musicality and ability to tell a story on ice.

    Each skater, win lose or draw, was totally unique and brought a different perspective. Now... not so much and the sport suffers for it because we have no idea the personalities, passions, or special qualities that the new generation possess. And its sad. And wrong. And Boring.

  7. #52
    On the Ice poloska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwanford Wife View Post
    Mao doesn't have a full set of triples... what she does have is a lovely triple axle - when she lands it...



    Each skater, win lose or draw, was totally unique and brought a different perspective. Now... not so much and the sport suffers for it because we have no idea the personalities, passions, or special qualities that the new generation possess. And its sad. And wrong. And Boring.
    I don't agree with you. I love Yuna and Mao, and other skaters of new generation. Sorry, but did Michelle has loop in her combos? I don't remember really. All generations are good, this is just different, not wrong or boring.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by poloska View Post
    I don't agree with you. I love Yuna and Mao, and other skaters of new generation. Sorry, but did Michelle has loop in her combos? I don't remember really. All generations are good, this is just different, not wrong or boring.
    She did a triple lutz-double loop in her 2002 LP. Btw, I saw Michelle's 'Scheherazade' today and immediately got Yu-Na flashbacks (it should be the other way around; just goes to show I've been paying too much attention to the newbies and not enough on the oldies):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9cLvnlxFBY

    Michelle also did a triple flip-double toe-double loop in her 2005 Worlds LP.

  9. #54
    On the Ice poloska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andalusia View Post
    She did a triple lutz-double loop in her 2002 LP. Btw, I saw Michelle's 'Scheherazade' today and immediately got Yu-Na flashbacks (it should be the other way around; just goes to show I've been paying too much attention to the newbies and not enough on the oldies):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9cLvnlxFBY

    Michelle also did a triple flip-double toe-double loop in her 2005 Worlds LP.
    But it was very rare to see Michelle did it
    Back to the topic. I don't think that Yuna is similar to Michelle or to Katarina, yes Michelle is her idol, and sometimes you can see some movements which can remind you of Michelle. But nothing more. Every skater from top 10 has it's own style and individuality.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by poloska View Post
    But it was very rare to see Michelle did it
    Back to the topic. I don't think that Yuna is similar to Michelle or to Katarina, yes Michelle is her idol, and sometimes you can see some movements which can remind you of Michelle. But nothing more. Every skater from top 10 has it's own style and individuality.
    I think Yuna is like a wild pony. Her artistry is still developing.
    I think Mao is like a cute little bunny rabbit. She still seems shy at times.
    I think Miki is like a wild cat. Not so easy to tame but always worth the effort.
    I think Alissa is like a swan with a broken wing. Will she ever fly?
    I think Mirai is like a can of Sprite. So effervescent.
    I think Caroline is divine. She can also bend like Gumby.
    I think Rachael is like Rodney Dangerfield. Not enough respect.
    I think Michelle is the Kween. She is class personified.
    I think Janet captivated a crowd like no other. Once seen she is never forgotten.
    Last edited by janetfan; 06-10-2009 at 02:51 PM.

  11. #56
    Thank God for Stephane Lambiel and Matt Savoie! shine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    Miki's posture is the best??? Really? I couldn't disagree more! I think of all the elite skaters Miki's posture is still the worst. She has worked very hard on it, that much is true, but she still falls behind most of the skaters in the tope 10 and lower in terms of posture.

    Ant
    I couldn't believe that either. If Miki's stetch is the best, then there's really no skater in the world with bad posture.

  12. #57
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andalusia View Post
    She did a triple lutz-double loop in her 2002 LP.

    Michelle also did a triple flip-double toe-double loop in her 2005 Worlds LP.
    I think in 2002 the idea was to work up to a 3F+3Lo, but it didn't work out. At Skate Canada she tried 3Lz+3Lo, but fell.

    In both of these cases I think Michelle felt under pressure to raise the technical content because of what she thought Slutskaya was going to do. Going into the Olympics, she very much wanted to up the rtechnical ante. I think this was part of the problems she was having with her coach and choreographer that year.

    In 2005, the culprit was the CoP. She looked at her nationals performance and realized she needed to squeeze some more points out of it, somehow. Adding a 2Lo to a 3F+2T got her an extra 1.5 points. I'm not sure that it made the program any better, but points are points.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Mao has gone through several cycles. It was two or three years ago where her LP looked like 3Lo, 3Lo+2Lo, 3Lo+2Lo+2Lo, etc.
    Obviously that was not the actual jump content, since three triple loops would have been illegal and wasted a jump pass. I think there was something similar with 2A instead of 3Lo as the first jump of one of the combos, though.

    (Off topic -- I would recommend disallowing the three-jump combos that end in 2Lo+2Lo or 2T+2Lo. They are chpreography-killers, bringing the program to a dead stop.)
    I would not disallow these combinations. They are invaluable for skaters who don't have all the triples. It's a way for a skater who doesn't have a 3Lo to get a 2Lo or two into the program without wasting a jumping pass. Similarly, something like 2F+2Lo+2Lo or 2Lz+2T+2Lo can make it worth a skater's while to include a 2F or 2Lz if they don't have the triples. Slightly stronger jumpers will try the three-jump combos with 2A as the first jump.

    Edited to add an example:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMwXYdkSK4g
    (first jumping pass)
    Last edited by gkelly; 06-10-2009 at 03:42 PM.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by poloska View Post
    I don't agree with you. I love Yuna and Mao, and other skaters of new generation. Sorry, but did Michelle has loop in her combos? I don't remember really. All generations are good, this is just different, not wrong or boring.
    You must agree with me!! At all times!! Its mandatory!! Its under the Patriot Act!!

    And as stated below, Michelle did have a loop in her combos. But she also have much more and I believe the new generation suffers because they do not have the flexibilty of creativity under the new system. Nor, are they given the opportunity to really shine on the ice because they worry more about points than putting their best package on the ice. If you don't agree, then go back and watch their mouths as they count to three on wacky spirals that are identical to the previous spirals already performed. Or the funky spins with the crazy leg positions.

    How can you judge individual quality, skill, and talent when the programs are uneven, sloppy, and littered with falls? As for my boring statement - hmmm... maybe I should develop a drinking game for each mistake to make it more fun... one shot for under rotation. two shots for a fall. three shots for a win with a fall... (yep, not boring anymore...)

  15. #60
    Custom Title DragonPhoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    I couldn't believe that either. If Miki's stetch is the best, then there's really no skater in the world with bad posture.

    YAWN......

    This is really a tired statement.

    There are so many skaters out there with as bad or worse posture than Miki. Both current and retired. And some of their postures REALLY bother me. But I will refrain from naming names.

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