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Thread: Is Yu-Na more similar to Katarina rather than Michelle?

  1. #91
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andalusia View Post
    My issue with Rochette's arms is that they're...stiff. She has good posture, as do Michelle and Laura, but her arms don't move as fluidly and naturally as Michelle's. Laura has this problem, too. It's like they're holding a big beach ball.
    Dick Button was a big fan of beach ball arms. Here he is praising Michelle's arms in 1998.

    ''When Michelle has her arms spread, it's like she's holding the biggest beach ball in the world. Take the beach ball away and it looks like she's embracing everyone in the crowd."
    He also famously recommended that Kimmie Meissner practice with a beach ball to achieve that effect.

  2. #92
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soogar View Post
    With layouts like that, how am I supposed to know which jumps she has and which ones she doesn't? As far as I am concerned, if she is tinkering around with her jump layouts rather than sticking in one of each jump, she is working around a weakness and does NOT have all of the jumps.
    I think the question of whether someone has a full set of jumps depends very much on how often the skater lands or has landed the different jumps. Mao has landed one of every triple in competition. Yuna has landed all five triples up to Lutz in competition (though i think she has landed the triple loop only once). I'm still wondering why you give the world champion a pass despite her not having a full set of triples? Actually, what does it matter who does and doesn't have a full set of triples if Yuna won the world championships by and overwhelming lead without a full set of triples?

    I remember after Michelle did Bolero at worlds there were tons of posts about how Michelle couldn't land the triple loop or the triple salchow, simply because she fell on the salchow that worlds. That seemed very bizarre at the time.

    Perhaps you are still looking at skating far too much through 6.0 eyes than COP eyes?

    Under COP there is no point advantage to showing a triple with every kind of take off, though there have been various suggestions that there should be bonus points awarded for landing a comlpete set of triples, or five plus a double axel, but as yet this has not been implemented.

    Under COP the whole point of the scoring system is to get as many points as possible, so it is no longer in the skaters interest to repeat the easier triples. That is just the way skating has gone under COP. The limits on jumping passes means that unless a lady has a 3/3 combination or a 2A/3 combination then she canot do 7 triples. If you are only going to do six triples there is no point in show-casing all five triples and repeating one, it is better to repeat your two hardest triples and leave one triple out.

    Ant

  3. #93
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    Under COP the whole point of the scoring system is to get as many points as possible, so it is no longer in the skaters interest to repeat the easier triples.
    Or even to do them at all.

    I think this is a big flaw in the CoP. The whole idea behind the new judging system was that it was supposed to encourage and reward a "balanced" program."

    Instead, a program like 3A+2T, 3A, 3Lz+2t, 3Lz, 3F, 2A+2A seq, 2A+2T+2T -- 5 triples, no tripel-triple, no triple loop, no triple salchow, no triple toe -- outpoints the program that Kim scored 207 points on, by almost 8 base points.

    This is what Mao should do (possibly substituting another flip for one of her Lutzes) if she wants to win the Olympics with a record score.

  4. #94
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Or even to do them at all.

    I think this is a big flaw in the CoP. The whole idea behind the new judging system was that it was supposed to encourage and reward a "balanced" program."

    Instead, a program like 3A+2T, 3A, 3Lz+2t, 3Lz, 3F, 2A+2A seq, 2A+2T+2T -- 5 triples, no tripel-triple, no triple loop, no triple salchow, no triple toe -- outpoints the program that Kim scored 207 points on, by almost 8 base points.

    This is what Mao should do (possibly substituting another flip for one of her Lutzes) if she wants to win the Olympics with a record score.
    That is a shame. Was it gkelly that did quite a detailed propsal for a point bonus with various options e.g. double axel and five triples get one bonus, all six triples gets a higher bonus, all six triples but phrased in some way so that one can be a quad gets an even higher bonus. There was also something about how low the GOE could be in order to count for the bonus.

    I liked that idea a lot.

    Ant

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    I think the question of whether someone has a full set of jumps depends very much on how often the skater lands or has landed the different jumps. Mao has landed one of every triple in competition. Yuna has landed all five triples up to Lutz in competition (though i think she has landed the triple loop only once). I'm still wondering why you give the world champion a pass despite her not having a full set of triples? Actually, what does it matter who does and doesn't have a full set of triples if Yuna won the world championships by and overwhelming lead without a full set of triples?


    Ant
    I don't give the world champion a pass. The contention was that Mao had all of the triples yet somehow has enough trouble with some of them that she leaves them out of competition. I don't believe that Yu Na is the jumping powerhouse that people make her out to be. She did 5 triples- 1 3-3 combo. That is not unbeatable.

    If it is so disadvantageous for skaters to do a full set of triples under COP, how come there are so many skaters who do attempt a full layout of jumps save for the triple axel? As for Yu Na's triple loop, I thought that was one of the jumps that she had doubled in her LP? Did she intend on putting a 3 loop in and doubled it or was it always the intent not to do it? Either way, leaving out one jump is not the same as leaving out groups of jumps. IMO, Yu Na's programs are more balanced jump wise than Mao's.

    For the past few years, Mao has been tinkering with her jump layouts to compensate for the jumps she doesn't do well and get points for the ones she has good technique on. It doesn't matter to me that she landed a salchow or a flutz in previous competitions- I watch worlds and see she doesn't even attempt certain jumps. At that particular point, without even making an attempt to include a jump, I can only conclude that she does not have a full set of triples. Watching the same jump over and over.. There are only so many axels I can watch.

    I do believe that in COP, the advantage to doing different jumps would be reflected in the second score. It's still the hallmark of a good program to show variety for jumps and spins. Seems that male skaters have an easier time showing that variety than the women.
    Last edited by soogar; 06-11-2009 at 11:12 AM.

  6. #96
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soogar View Post
    If it is so disadvantageous for skaters to do a full set of triples under COP, how come there are so many skaters who do attempt a full layout of jumps save for the triple axel?
    I think it is because of pride on the part of old-school coaches and choreographers.

    I do believe that in COP, the advantage to doing different jumps would be reflected in the second score. It's still the hallmark of a good program to show variety for jumps and spins.
    I agree.

    In any case, not many ladies have a triple Axel at all, so their options are more limited if they start leaving out jumps.
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-11-2009 at 11:19 AM.

  7. #97
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soogar View Post
    I do believe that in COP, the advantage to doing different jumps would be reflected in the second score. It's still the hallmark of a good program to show variety for jumps and spins. Seems that male skaters have an easier time showing that variety than the women.
    I think aesthetically to the skate fan it is much better to see a full arsenal of jumps, and it is good for the viewr to see variety, however the COP does not reward or even encourage it.

    Under the COP there is no mention anywhere that doing different jumps will add to the score. Not a single one of the PCS breakdown categoreis refers to variety of jumps of different take offs as far as i'm aware.

    In fact the only rules about variety are that you cannot repeat a spin with the same shortening. This, however doesn.t really do much for variety becaseu the skater learns one difficult variation and change of edge on a spin and generally puts it into every singel spin in the programme.

    Ant

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    Under the COP there is no mention anywhere that doing different jumps will add to the score. Not a single one of the PCS breakdown categoreis refers to variety of jumps of different take offs as far as i'm aware.
    Still, I think it could be rewarded under skating skills, perfromance/execution, choreography and interpretation.

    Jumps should punctuate thematic choreographic highlights, and should be matched to the music.

    Although...I am not sure how a spectacular triple flip on the resolution of a big crescendo would differ from a spectacular triple loop in the same place.

    But then again...if the musical theme were repeated and you have already established the expectation of the audience by doing a flip last time, then this time you come out with a loop instead! Wow!

  9. #99
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    One thing that I always really liked about Rochette is the subtle use of her arms to nuances in the music. Funny how everyone can see different things.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Dick Button was a big fan of beach ball arms. Here he is praising Michelle's arms in 1998.



    He also famously recommended that Kimmie Meissner practice with a beach ball to achieve that effect.
    Well then, maybe holding a beach ball is not the most apt analogy. More like clutching a slab of concrete tightly to the chest.

    In ballet, when a dancer is playing a puppet/marionette character (I'm thinking of maybe Coppelia), he/she holds their arms out forwards in a mechanical, slightly robotic manner - that's what Joannie's arm movements remind me of.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    That is a shame. Was it gkelly that did quite a detailed propsal for a point bonus with various options e.g. double axel and five triples get one bonus, all six triples gets a higher bonus, all six triples but phrased in some way so that one can be a quad gets an even higher bonus. There was also something about how low the GOE could be in order to count for the bonus.

    I liked that idea a lot.
    Thanks.

    Actually, what I proposed was:

    2.00 bonus for including six different takeoffs as doubles or better.

    4.00 bonus for including six different takeoffs as triples or better.*

    *Up for discussion whether female skaters should qualify for it if they do five triples and double axel. I didn't propose an intermediate bonus for that jump content, which would also apply to men without triple axels. What do you think -- 3.00 for that content? Or just define the 4.00 bonus that way for everyone, since having the triple axel is already rewarded sufficiently in its base mark?

    4.00 bonus for including eight different takeoffs as doubles or better (if double walley and double inside axel would be added to the scale of values)

    No extra bonus for doing quads, but a quad could count toward the higher bonus instead of a triple of the same takeoff.

    So even if you do no triples at all you could still earn the 2.00 bonus.

    If you only have 2A, 3T, and 3S, don't fill seven jump passes by repeating those jumps with and without double toes -- despite the lower base mark there's incentive to include all of double loop, flip, and lutz if you don't have the triples.

    If you have five different triples, find a way to fit in a double of the takeoff you don't have. Of course it would also help if jumps in jump sequences received their full value.

    Downgraded quads count as triples. Downgraded triples count as doubles. Downgraded doubles don't count. Lutzes and flips with "e" calls don't count.

    GOE must average -1 (i.e., basically completed with a minor flaw or a moderate flaw and other good aspects to compensate) or better for the jump to count toward the bonus.
    But I realized there is a problem with that criterion. What do you do for a jump combination in which there are two flaws or a moderate-to-serious flaw on one jump, even a fall on the second jump, but the other jump is clean and correct? The GOE would be lower than -1 because of the bad jump, but should the good jump count toward the bonus? If the bad one was repeated successfully in a different jump pass, would the skater still be eligible for the bonus? I'm not sure how to solve that apart from having the technical controller or the referee verify each jump manually to determine who does or doesn't earn the bonus.


    Anyway, I know of no movement to institute any kind of reward for variety of jump takeoffs beyond the Zayak rule and the axel requirement. I've only heard discussion among fans, so I tried to think of a fair way to reward it.

    Still, if a skater just plain can not do a certain jump (e.g., flutzes on the double lutz and is inconsistent landing it, isn't even close to a triple), there would be no point in trying it in hopes of the smaller bonus which she's not going to earn anyway. Might as well use the spot for a jump she can actually do.

  12. #102
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ...if the musical theme were repeated and you have already established the expectation of the audience by doing a flip last time, then this time you come out with a loop instead! Wow!
    I apologize for quoting myself , but here is an example of what I mean.

    At the end of the bridge, the music swells up for a return to the main theme, begging the skater: DO SOMETHING!

    The first time, she puts in her triple Lutz (check out the edge ). Now having marked that passage with ner hardest jump, the second time around -- wait for it, here it comes -- a spectacular split falling leaf into a change-edge spread eagle!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS3Fn...eature=related

  13. #103
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    how have i missed kwan with so short hair, I remember her around 2000 with short hair but not so short!!!

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    I agree. Joannie is to me, the Kwan of this era in skating. She rarely tries/lands the triple triple...has has good choreography, skates with emotion and has the knack of getting the audience to root for her. I think her silver at worlds might be what inspired Michelle to think about a comeback more seriously.
    C'mon... I seriously doubt that Joannie Rochette would inspire a Kwan comeback or even a seriousl comparison. Don't get me wrong, I like Joannie's skating but to say that because she rarely tries/ lands triple triples but has good choreography is a misnomer... Joannie is at her prime and getting good results. At Michelle's prime, she was putting out the Red Violin. There is no comparison.

    Now I will say that I do agree with the idea that both Michelle and Joannie are unique from most skaters in that they are true athletes vs. the traditional figure skater... for example- sasha was born to skate (or be a gymnist). michelle was born to compete athletically. there's a difference... at least in my mind.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwanford Wife View Post
    C'mon... I seriously doubt that Joannie Rochette would inspire a Kwan comeback or even a seriousl comparison. Don't get me wrong, I like Joannie's skating but to say that because she rarely tries/ lands triple triples but has good choreography is a misnomer... Joannie is at her prime and getting good results. At Michelle's prime, she was putting out the Red Violin. There is no comparison.

    Now I will say that I do agree with the idea that both Michelle and Joannie are unique from most skaters in that they are true athletes vs. the traditional figure skater... for example- sasha was born to skate (or be a gymnist). michelle was born to compete athletically. there's a difference... at least in my mind.
    I believe Tinymavy15 was not trying to compare how good a skater Joannie is when compared to Michelle. I think she was trying to point out that as a skater Joannie has similar advantages and shortcomings as Kwan, and the fact that her competitive strategy which has successfully used her strengths to maximize her score under COP has encouraged Kwan, because of their similarities.
    Whether Joannie's programs are as good as Kwan's is an entirely separate discussion.

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