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Thread: Thoughts on New guidelines for GOE and Levels of difficulty for 2009-10 Season

  1. #16
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by visaliakid View Post
    If I wanted to take the time to read and digest everything listed and all the background information related to how each would,could,should be applied I might become more understanding and conversant in this detailed scoring system. Regardless, I continue to fathom how any judge can absorb, and retain all this and then apply said info to the judging of each skater during a program? I simply believe it is all too technical and all too encompassing for any one human to utlize with any semblence of accuracy.

    The more they adapt, add, subtract or revise this system the more overbearing it becomes.

    BAH HUMBUG! It needs simplification not increased mechanization!
    I have to agree. While I can understand most of it, I also understand that the general public will never get it. It is truly an 'insider' sport. How many 'new fans' are willing to learn all these intracacies? and to 'old' fans who can easily tell who should be the winner without all this mechanization.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    And a super independent authority that keeps the independent authority fair.
    And that, of course, is a code for ME.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    If you mean landing a jump on the swell of the music as in Nessum Dorme, then one has to Time the Jump to the Rhythm of the music. Not easy.
    Triple jumps aren't easy either. Sounds like a good reason for both to be worth points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    if a skater is portraying an Opera or Ballet character, that character does not do a triple salchow on stage.Best to just use the music without the story.
    I don't think perfect timing should count for an enormous amount, but it should definitely count. The judges see what the audience sees, if it matters to the audience it should matter to the judges. CoP gets in the way of that. The judges' job should be no more than ranking the performances in an objective way which is CONNECTED to the audience instead of disconnected. If a skater makes a big mistake and gets behind on the timing, then that might be a problem, but if the system itself weren't so fundamentally stifling, a skater might actually have time to CATCH UP.

    Of course I can give allowances to some things mattering MORE than the audience cares about, such as complete rotation, but in those cases the underrotation really needs to be spelled out so the audience knows immediately the what and the why behind the deductions.
    Last edited by Particle Man; 04-16-2009 at 06:36 PM.

  3. #18
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    After watching the entire skate, I think the audience and the judges know exactly who is the winner and in most cases who are second and third. One doesn't need a list of do's and dont's. However, when the contest is really hot, as is was for the Men in Gothenborg, then I appreciate the CoP.

    The PC scores are well covered in the Tech's GoEs, imo, and only an overall score of showing talent and beauty should be considered

    Audiences get confused when they see an obvious winner not win. CoP enthusiasts understand what happened. Then there are the blokes like me who wonder what makes these judges know so much more than ardent fans,

    I contend that the winner of a CoP competition may not be a great skater, but one who obeys what has to be done.

  4. #19
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
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    3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
    4) good height and distance
    5) good extension on landing / creative exit
    6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
    7) effortless throughout
    Is it just me or should after this several skaters get +2 on nearly every jump (let's say - Johnny, e.g.).

    I really don't think the judges can consider all these points at once. A Joubert and a Chan will always get more +2s for a rather average jump than Obscure Skater No.43 for an excellent jump.

    1.2. [...] In throw jumps it includes turning of the Man on the ice before throwing the Lady in the air.
    Hehh? What exactly do they mean?

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    I really don't think the judges can consider all these points at once. A Joubert and a Chan will always get more +2s for a rather average jump than Obscure Skater No.43 for an excellent jump.
    Do you have links for some excellent jumps boy Obscure Skater No.43?

  6. #21
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    Too complicated for this avid fan.

    I agree with the poster(s) who said the frequent changes, in the guise of simplification, have the opposite affect becuase it's impossible for judges, not to mention coaches, choreographers and skaters themselves, to comprehend and absorb them from one season to the next.

    This is the only sport I know of that changes rules more frequently than skaters change edges!

  7. #22
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    They changed something which had been blatantly and obviously wrong, that people had been complaining about for years. How anyone has an issue with that is truly beyond me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Particle Man View Post
    It is overwhelming, and that is the nature of this system. DarkestMoon, CoP is flawed. Either throw the whole thing out, or allow them to put these bandaids on it. No way in the world can CoP just limp along as it is, burying its head in the sand to all the contradictions like the double penalty for underrotation, etc. This is the absolute minimum they can do to keep CoP from being completely laughable.
    I do agree it's flaw and that it does need tweaking. However, the changes are so drastic each season and my response to visaliakid, who thought it's impossible for humans to remember all this was that, yes, changes should be made but made in greater intervals. Yes, you do have a season to digest all the changes but you'd have to remember that including the previous rules you might not even be so clear on. I'll be shot for this but maybe BIG changes should be made every two seasons? <----- good in theory but still bad in exceution, I admit.

    I think it's hilarious that skating switched to a point-earning system but lay out virtually very little criteria, if none, on how PCs are scored. The TES and the GOEs are one thing because you're told exactly what you need to do to get higher marks, whether judges follow them or not is a different story. Most get crazed by PCs.

    If you botched your program, yes, your performance portion should take the blow but your skating skills shouldn't (that is if you had good-great skating skills to begin with).

    If anything, judges should keep a copy on pdf open and use CRTL+F to quick search when it doubt. *shrug*
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 04-17-2009 at 01:32 PM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkestMoon View Post
    yes, changes should be made but made in greater intervals. Yes, you do have a season to digest all the changes but you'd have to remember that including the previous rules you might not even be so clear on. I'll be shot for this but maybe BIG changes should be made every two seasons? <----- good in theory but still bad in exceution, I admit.
    The really big changes that need to be voted on by the ISU Congress would only be made every two years.

    There were always some changes to the rules after each ISU Congress, but since a lot of details weren't spelled out in the old system, there weren't as many details officially changed.

    I think it's hilarious that skating switched to a point-earning system but lay out virtually very little criteria, if none, on how PCs are scored.
    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

    There's a lot more criteria and explanations than were spelled out for the second mark in the old system. There is still plenty of room for judges to use their own discretion and disagree with each other, though.

    If anything, judges should keep a copy on pdf open and use CRTL+F to quick search when it doubt. *shrug*
    I don't think the scoring computer systems allow for any other software to be available. And the rules don't allow them to bring any form of electronic communication onto the judging stand.

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf
    See p. 44

    At least at some competitions judges can take printouts of documents like the GOE guidelines onto the judging stand. They can't bring any previously prepared notes about the skaters or scores.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    entire post.
    Point taken.

    We may have gotten to the point where visuals are needed instead of reworded phrases.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkestMoon View Post
    We may have gotten to the point where visuals are needed instead of reworded phrases.
    Something like the drawings at the end of this document?
    http://www.usfigureskating.org/conte...%202008-09.pdf

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Something like the drawings at the end of this document?
    http://www.usfigureskating.org/conte...%202008-09.pdf
    I was hoping for video presentation. Hire Shizuka to skate what ISU considers to be a CoP friendly program with all the new changes as demo.

  13. #28
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    Well, programs can be friendly in different ways -- there would need to be several different examples.

    Or just take examples of past programs and add comments to point out what aspects should and shouldn't be penalized. Which I believe is done to some degree in judging schools/seminars, but not all trainers or all schools use the same examples.

    Of course they would need to use retired skaters to avoid introducing bias toward the skaters used as examples. Recently retired high-level skaters if they're going to ask them to skate something now to demonstrate specific skills or whole programs that require being in near-peak training.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post


    Well, programs can be friendly in different ways -- there would need to be several different examples.

    Or just take examples of past programs and add comments to point out what aspects should and shouldn't be penalized. Which I believe is done to some degree in judging schools/seminars, but not all trainers or all schools use the same examples.

    Of course they would need to use retired skaters to avoid introducing bias toward the skaters used as examples. Recently retired high-level skaters if they're going to ask them to skate something now to demonstrate specific skills or whole programs that require being in near-peak training.
    True but then there's a risk of imitating instead of experimenting. It would be great to have them show different ways of getting higher levels, like on spins. If I understood correctly, one could do two positions: sit spin and catch-sit with a twist: hold both positions for 8 revolutions, stay centered and gain speed. Difficult to do but should acquire at least a level 3, no?

    Unfortunately, time just ran out to experiment and be adventurous. With the biellman once per program, ladies gotta come up with new spiral/spin positions.
    Last edited by DarkestMoon; 04-17-2009 at 11:52 AM. Reason: spelling mistake

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkestMoon View Post
    True but then there's a risk of imitating instead of experimenting. It would be great to have them show different ways of getting higher levels, like on spins.
    Yeah. But you don't need to get a skater to skate a whole program to demonstrate that. Just get some expert spinners to demonstrate a variety of approaches toward earning higher levels on each type of spin.

    And do the same for spiral sequences. And for relevant pair and dance elements.

    I would say step sequences but right now the rules are such that all singles skaters need to meet the same requirements to earn level 4, and very few manage to do so. Sure, there are different approaches one can take toward choreographing the sequences within those requirements, but it would be hard to come up with several examples of level 4 sequences that look and feel different and that the demonstrator(s) can learn and demonstrate adequately.

    Also you could give several examples of level 2 or level 3 step sequences that take completely different choreographic approaches and point out how they can even outscore level 4 sequences if the GOE is high enough.

    Either way, that would take a lot more choreography and practice time then just getting skaters who already have unique spin or spiral skills to show how they can be incorporated into a spiral sequence to earn levels.

    You're thinking of this mainly as an educational tool for skaters (and coaches and choreographers)? It certainly could be useful for inspiring more variety and creativity in meeting the level requirements.

    (I still think the step sequence requirements need to be modified if variety is a goal the ISU wants to promote.)

    If I understood correctly, one could do two positions: sit spin and catch-sit with a twist: hold both positions for 8 revolutions, stay centered and gain speed. Difficult to do but should acquire at least a level 3, no?
    Yes, I think so. Ask a technical specialist to be sure. Is this a sitspin on one foot, or with a change of foot between the two positions?

    Unfortunately, time just ran out to experiment and be adventurous. With the biellman once per program, ladies gotta come up with new spiral/spin positions.
    I'm not sure what you mean by "time just ran out."

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