Thoughts on New guidelines for GOE and Levels of difficulty for 2009-10 Season

Too complicated for this avid fan.

I agree with the poster(s) who said the frequent changes, in the guise of simplification, have the opposite affect becuase it's impossible for judges, not to mention coaches, choreographers and skaters themselves, to comprehend and absorb them from one season to the next.

This is the only sport I know of that changes rules more frequently than skaters change edges!

They changed something which had been blatantly and obviously wrong, that people had been complaining about for years. How anyone has an issue with that is truly beyond me.

Particle Man said:

It is overwhelming, and that is the nature of this system. DarkestMoon, CoP is flawed. Either throw the whole thing out, or allow them to put these bandaids on it. No way in the world can CoP just limp along as it is, burying its head in the sand to all the contradictions like the double penalty for underrotation, etc. This is the absolute minimum they can do to keep CoP from being completely laughable.

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I do agree it's flaw and that it does need tweaking. However, the changes are so drastic each season and my response to visaliakid, who thought it's impossible for humans to remember all this was that, yes, changes should be made but made in greater intervals. Yes, you do have a season to digest all the changes but you'd have to remember that including the previous rules you might not even be so clear on. I'll be shot for this but maybe BIG changes should be made every two seasons? <----- good in theory but still bad in exceution, I admit.

I think it's hilarious that skating switched to a point-earning system but lay out virtually very little criteria, if none, on how PCs are scored. The TES and the GOEs are one thing because you're told exactly what you need to do to get higher marks, whether judges follow them or not is a different story. Most get crazed by PCs.

If you botched your program, yes, your performance portion should take the blow but your skating skills shouldn't (that is if you had good-great skating skills to begin with).

If anything, judges should keep a copy on pdf open and use CRTL+F to quick search when it doubt. *shrug*

DarkestMoon said:

yes, changes should be made but made in greater intervals. Yes, you do have a season to digest all the changes but you'd have to remember that including the previous rules you might not even be so clear on. I'll be shot for this but maybe BIG changes should be made every two seasons? <----- good in theory but still bad in exceution, I admit.

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The really big changes that need to be voted on by the ISU Congress would only be made every two years.

There were always some changes to the rules after each ISU Congress, but since a lot of details weren't spelled out in the old system, there weren't as many details officially changed.

I think it's hilarious that skating switched to a point-earning system but lay out virtually very little criteria, if none, on how PCs are scored.

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http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf

There's a lot more criteria and explanations than were spelled out for the second mark in the old system. There is still plenty of room for judges to use their own discretion and disagree with each other, though.

If anything, judges should keep a copy on pdf open and use CRTL+F to quick search when it doubt. *shrug*

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I don't think the scoring computer systems allow for any other software to be available. And the rules don't allow them to bring any form of electronic communication onto the judging stand.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-191592-208815-140518-0-file,00.pdf
See p. 44

At least at some competitions judges can take printouts of documents like the GOE guidelines onto the judging stand. They can't bring any previously prepared notes about the skaters or scores.

gkelly said:

entire post.

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Point taken. :agree:

We may have gotten to the point where visuals are needed instead of reworded phrases.

DarkestMoon said:

We may have gotten to the point where visuals are needed instead of reworded phrases.

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Something like the drawings at the end of this document?
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/First Aid Dance 2008-09.pdf

gkelly said:

Something like the drawings at the end of this document?
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/First Aid Dance 2008-09.pdf

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I was hoping for video presentation. Hire Shizuka to skate what ISU considers to be a CoP friendly program with all the new changes as demo.

Well, programs can be friendly in different ways -- there would need to be several different examples.

Or just take examples of past programs and add comments to point out what aspects should and shouldn't be penalized. Which I believe is done to some degree in judging schools/seminars, but not all trainers or all schools use the same examples.

Of course they would need to use retired skaters to avoid introducing bias toward the skaters used as examples. Recently retired high-level skaters if they're going to ask them to skate something now to demonstrate specific skills or whole programs that require being in near-peak training.

gkelly said:

Well, programs can be friendly in different ways -- there would need to be several different examples.

Or just take examples of past programs and add comments to point out what aspects should and shouldn't be penalized. Which I believe is done to some degree in judging schools/seminars, but not all trainers or all schools use the same examples.

Of course they would need to use retired skaters to avoid introducing bias toward the skaters used as examples. Recently retired high-level skaters if they're going to ask them to skate something now to demonstrate specific skills or whole programs that require being in near-peak training.

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True but then there's a risk of imitating instead of experimenting. It would be great to have them show different ways of getting higher levels, like on spins. If I understood correctly, one could do two positions: sit spin and catch-sit with a twist: hold both positions for 8 revolutions, stay centered and gain speed. Difficult to do but should acquire at least a level 3, no?

Unfortunately, time just ran out to experiment and be adventurous. With the biellman once per program, ladies gotta come up with new spiral/spin positions.

DarkestMoon said:

True but then there's a risk of imitating instead of experimenting. It would be great to have them show different ways of getting higher levels, like on spins.

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Yeah. But you don't need to get a skater to skate a whole program to demonstrate that. Just get some expert spinners to demonstrate a variety of approaches toward earning higher levels on each type of spin.

And do the same for spiral sequences. And for relevant pair and dance elements.

I would say step sequences but right now the rules are such that all singles skaters need to meet the same requirements to earn level 4, and very few manage to do so. Sure, there are different approaches one can take toward choreographing the sequences within those requirements, but it would be hard to come up with several examples of level 4 sequences that look and feel different and that the demonstrator(s) can learn and demonstrate adequately.

Also you could give several examples of level 2 or level 3 step sequences that take completely different choreographic approaches and point out how they can even outscore level 4 sequences if the GOE is high enough.

Either way, that would take a lot more choreography and practice time then just getting skaters who already have unique spin or spiral skills to show how they can be incorporated into a spiral sequence to earn levels.

You're thinking of this mainly as an educational tool for skaters (and coaches and choreographers)? It certainly could be useful for inspiring more variety and creativity in meeting the level requirements.

(I still think the step sequence requirements need to be modified if variety is a goal the ISU wants to promote.)

If I understood correctly, one could do two positions: sit spin and catch-sit with a twist: hold both positions for 8 revolutions, stay centered and gain speed. Difficult to do but should acquire at least a level 3, no?

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Yes, I think so. Ask a technical specialist to be sure. Is this a sitspin on one foot, or with a change of foot between the two positions?

Unfortunately, time just ran out to experiment and be adventurous. With the biellman once per program, ladies gotta come up with new spiral/spin positions.

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I'm not sure what you mean by "time just ran out."

I think you guys are over analyzing everything. A COP freindly program is nothing more than high quality elements , level three or higher, lots of transitions, and seven triples (three combination). If skaters just focus on doing what they do well they would be ok. The changes in the goe's are just detail description of what is already going on.

Agreed. Most of the details in the updates are usually aimed at clarifying how the tech specialist is supposed to determine the levels, especially how to deal with borderline situations. Some also affect the judges. Where there are real changes in what does or does not receive credit, it is useful for the skaters and coaches to know so they can plan their programs and elements accordingly. But most of the tweaks will have no direct effect on what the skaters aim to put out on the ice.

gkelly said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "time just ran out."

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I mean that in an Olympic year you really don't want to continuously tweak your programs more than once or twice. The problem is that the cop almost forces you to do so. Yu-na barely had to tweak her programs this season because her programs did work for her. It's difficult to be creative and be rewarded for that. It's risky to be adventurous in an Olympic year, which is why it was a good strategy for Mao to do it this year instead.

gkelly said:

Something like the drawings at the end of this document?

http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/First Aid Dance 2008-09.pdf

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That made my day!

gkelly said:

Do you have links for some excellent jumps by Obscure Skater No.43?

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I have two questions,a little off topic, but related to this.

1. Suppose you are judging, say, a novice competition, Someone does a pretty good triple jump. Not Brian Joubert pretty good, but pretty good for the competition at hand. Would that skater get a +2 GOE for doing the best jump of the day?

2. Is the IJS used for Adult Skating competitions?

Mathman said:

That made my day!

I have two questions,a little off topic, but related to this.

1. Suppose you are judging, say, a novice competition, Someone does a pretty good triple jump. Not Brian Joubert pretty good, but pretty good for the competition at hand. Would that skater get a +2 GOE for doing the best jump of the day?

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The pictures were way too epic! If you didn't tell me those were ice dancing pictures, I would have assume something ... x-rated.

I'd give +2GOE for being able to do it well based on the level the skater is at, basically one's own individual skill. However, this probably doesn't happen in real life senior competitions, does it? Judging according to one's ability as opposed to judging according to the rest of the field?

Mathman said:

I have two questions,a little off topic, but related to this.

1. Suppose you are judging, say, a novice competition, Someone does a pretty good triple jump. Not Brian Joubert pretty good, but pretty good for the competition at hand. Would that skater get a +2 GOE for doing the best jump of the day?

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They'd get +2 if it was good enough to deserve +2.
Looking at the protocols for the novice events at 2009 US Nationals, there weren't any +2s for triple jumps, but there were several for spins and for double axels. Joshua Farris got the following scores for his double axels:

Short program
1 2 1 2 2 1 1 1 3
Long program
2 2 2 2 2 1 1 2 2

2. Is the IJS used for Adult Skating competitions?

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So far, it has been used at the Adult Gold and Masters levels at Adult Nationals in the US.

I understand that Canada uses their version of IJS for lower levels at all levels, including for adults.

I know some international adult events in Europe use IJS at all adult levels.

gkelly said:

So far, it has been used at the Adult Gold and Masters levels at Adult Nationals in the US.

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What sort of Program Compnent Scores do champion adult skaters typically get?

Mathman said:

1. Suppose you are judging, say, a novice competition, Someone does a pretty good triple jump. Not Brian Joubert pretty good, but pretty good for the competition at hand. Would that skater get a +2 GOE for doing the best jump of the day?

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I thought that was an interesting question so I looked at some protocols from the BC/YT Section Championships from 2008. After looking through a couple of the top protocols for Pre-Novice and Novice Ladies, there were very few +2s awarded, and most were for spins. At the top of Pre-Novice, I don't think a single lady was awarded a +2 for a jumping pass. I wasn't at this specific competition, but I know what a lot of these skaters are capable of. I think that judges had pretty high standards at this competition and didn't budge!

For instance, watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OX1DZfVtKU&feature=channel_page

You can see her protocol here:

http://www.skatinginbc.com/Content/Competition/2009%20BMO%20Skate%20Canada%20BC%20YT%20Sectionals.asp
Click Pre-Novice Women Free Skater Details for her protocol (First skater).

Personally, I think she could have easily been awarded +2s on her first flip!

Mathman said:

What sort of Program Compnent Scores do champion adult skaters typically get?

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High 3s, low 4s, it seems:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/event_details.asp?id=39370

skatingbc said:

...I think that judges had pretty high standards at this competition and didn't budge!

For instance, watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OX1DZfVtKU&feature=channel_page

You can see her protocol here:

http://www.skatinginbc.com/Content/Competition/2009%20BMO%20Skate%20Canada%20BC%20YT%20Sectionals.asp
Click Pre-Novice Women Free Skater Details for her protocol (First skater).

Personally, I think she could have easily been awarded +2s on her first flip!

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That was great. I love this sport!

That is very interesting. I would have given her +1 at least on her 2F and also on her 2F+2T combination and on her combination spin, just on the general wow factor. I would also have given her higer marks than the judges did (high 3's, - low 4's) for Presentation and Intepretation.

But then again...I agree that the judges really are applying the criteria. Let's see if she deserves +2 GOE on her 2F. She needs four bullets.

1. Unexpected/creative/difficult entry? No (although she went right up into it swoosh )

2. Clear steps preceeding. No (although it did come right in the flow of the program, not "now I am going to do a jump")

3. Varied position in the air / delay in rotation? No, although she maintained a good classic position throughout.

4. Good height and distance. Well, I would say "good" but not awesome -- I am not sure how high is high and how far is far for this bullet.

5. Good extension on landing? Good, but maybe not exceptional enough to get this bullet.

6. Good flow from entry to exit. Yes.

7. Effortless throughout. I am sure that doing a double flip is far from effortless. But yes, she gave the appearance of effortlessness.

8. Element matched to the musical structure? Yes, but it is hard to say whether particularly so. Her whole program was nicely choreographed with highlight elements accentuating the character of the music.

9. Bonus point for looking like Rachael Flatt? Yes.

I would not fault a judge that found four out of five bullets from 4 to 8 and gave her a +2 (but none of the seven judges did.)

gkelly said:

[The best adult skaers get] High 3s, low 4s, it seems.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/event...s.asp?id=39370

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Those are exactly the results of this pre-novice skater.

I was able to attend the national adult championships a few years ago when they were in Ann Arbor. I was left with three overall impressions.

1. These guys and gals really had a blast.

2. The skill level was very impressive, both technically and artistically. Both the men and the ladies were really into interpreting various musical styles and moods.

3. Still...it renewed my appreciation for what the elite competive and professional touring skaters are putting on the ice.