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Thread: Thoughts on New guidelines for GOE and Levels of difficulty for 2009-10 Season

  1. #31
    Yeah! Lets get this party started. enlight78's Avatar
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    I think you guys are over analyzing everything. A COP freindly program is nothing more than high quality elements , level three or higher, lots of transitions, and seven triples (three combination). If skaters just focus on doing what they do well they would be ok. The changes in the goe's are just detail description of what is already going on.

  2. #32
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    Agreed. Most of the details in the updates are usually aimed at clarifying how the tech specialist is supposed to determine the levels, especially how to deal with borderline situations. Some also affect the judges. Where there are real changes in what does or does not receive credit, it is useful for the skaters and coaches to know so they can plan their programs and elements accordingly. But most of the tweaks will have no direct effect on what the skaters aim to put out on the ice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by "time just ran out."
    I mean that in an Olympic year you really don't want to continuously tweak your programs more than once or twice. The problem is that the cop almost forces you to do so. Yu-na barely had to tweak her programs this season because her programs did work for her. It's difficult to be creative and be rewarded for that. It's risky to be adventurous in an Olympic year, which is why it was a good strategy for Mao to do it this year instead.

  4. #34
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Something like the drawings at the end of this document?

    http://www.usfigureskating.org/conte...%202008-09.pdf
    That made my day!

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Do you have links for some excellent jumps by Obscure Skater No.43?
    I have two questions,a little off topic, but related to this.

    1. Suppose you are judging, say, a novice competition, Someone does a pretty good triple jump. Not Brian Joubert pretty good, but pretty good for the competition at hand. Would that skater get a +2 GOE for doing the best jump of the day?

    2. Is the IJS used for Adult Skating competitions?

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That made my day!

    I have two questions,a little off topic, but related to this.

    1. Suppose you are judging, say, a novice competition, Someone does a pretty good triple jump. Not Brian Joubert pretty good, but pretty good for the competition at hand. Would that skater get a +2 GOE for doing the best jump of the day?
    The pictures were way too epic! If you didn't tell me those were ice dancing pictures, I would have assume something ... x-rated.

    I'd give +2GOE for being able to do it well based on the level the skater is at, basically one's own individual skill. However, this probably doesn't happen in real life senior competitions, does it? Judging according to one's ability as opposed to judging according to the rest of the field?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I have two questions,a little off topic, but related to this.

    1. Suppose you are judging, say, a novice competition, Someone does a pretty good triple jump. Not Brian Joubert pretty good, but pretty good for the competition at hand. Would that skater get a +2 GOE for doing the best jump of the day?
    They'd get +2 if it was good enough to deserve +2.
    Looking at the protocols for the novice events at 2009 US Nationals, there weren't any +2s for triple jumps, but there were several for spins and for double axels. Joshua Farris got the following scores for his double axels:

    Short program
    1 2 1 2 2 1 1 1 3
    Long program
    2 2 2 2 2 1 1 2 2

    2. Is the IJS used for Adult Skating competitions?
    So far, it has been used at the Adult Gold and Masters levels at Adult Nationals in the US.

    I understand that Canada uses their version of IJS for lower levels at all levels, including for adults.

    I know some international adult events in Europe use IJS at all adult levels.

  7. #37
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    So far, it has been used at the Adult Gold and Masters levels at Adult Nationals in the US.
    What sort of Program Compnent Scores do champion adult skaters typically get?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    1. Suppose you are judging, say, a novice competition, Someone does a pretty good triple jump. Not Brian Joubert pretty good, but pretty good for the competition at hand. Would that skater get a +2 GOE for doing the best jump of the day?
    I thought that was an interesting question so I looked at some protocols from the BC/YT Section Championships from 2008. After looking through a couple of the top protocols for Pre-Novice and Novice Ladies, there were very few +2s awarded, and most were for spins. At the top of Pre-Novice, I don't think a single lady was awarded a +2 for a jumping pass. I wasn't at this specific competition, but I know what a lot of these skaters are capable of. I think that judges had pretty high standards at this competition and didn't budge!

    For instance, watch this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OX1D...e=channel_page

    You can see her protocol here:

    http://www.skatinginbc.com/Content/C...Sectionals.asp
    Click Pre-Novice Women Free Skater Details for her protocol (First skater).

    Personally, I think she could have easily been awarded +2s on her first flip!

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    What sort of Program Compnent Scores do champion adult skaters typically get?
    High 3s, low 4s, it seems:
    http://www.usfigureskating.org/event...s.asp?id=39370

  10. #40
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingbc View Post
    ...I think that judges had pretty high standards at this competition and didn't budge!

    For instance, watch this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OX1D...e=channel_page

    You can see her protocol here:

    http://www.skatinginbc.com/Content/C...Sectionals.asp
    Click Pre-Novice Women Free Skater Details for her protocol (First skater).

    Personally, I think she could have easily been awarded +2s on her first flip!
    That was great. I love this sport!

    That is very interesting. I would have given her +1 at least on her 2F and also on her 2F+2T combination and on her combination spin, just on the general wow factor. I would also have given her higer marks than the judges did (high 3's, - low 4's) for Presentation and Intepretation.

    But then again...I agree that the judges really are applying the criteria. Let's see if she deserves +2 GOE on her 2F. She needs four bullets.

    1. Unexpected/creative/difficult entry? No (although she went right up into it swoosh )

    2. Clear steps preceeding. No (although it did come right in the flow of the program, not "now I am going to do a jump")

    3. Varied position in the air / delay in rotation? No, although she maintained a good classic position throughout.

    4. Good height and distance. Well, I would say "good" but not awesome -- I am not sure how high is high and how far is far for this bullet.

    5. Good extension on landing? Good, but maybe not exceptional enough to get this bullet.

    6. Good flow from entry to exit. Yes.

    7. Effortless throughout. I am sure that doing a double flip is far from effortless. But yes, she gave the appearance of effortlessness.

    8. Element matched to the musical structure? Yes, but it is hard to say whether particularly so. Her whole program was nicely choreographed with highlight elements accentuating the character of the music.

    9. Bonus point for looking like Rachael Flatt? Yes.

    I would not fault a judge that found four out of five bullets from 4 to 8 and gave her a +2 (but none of the seven judges did.)

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly
    [The best adult skaers get] High 3s, low 4s, it seems.

    http://www.usfigureskating.org/event...s.asp?id=39370
    Those are exactly the results of this pre-novice skater.

    I was able to attend the national adult championships a few years ago when they were in Ann Arbor. I was left with three overall impressions.

    1. These guys and gals really had a blast.

    2. The skill level was very impressive, both technically and artistically. Both the men and the ladies were really into interpreting various musical styles and moods.

    3. Still...it renewed my appreciation for what the elite competive and professional touring skaters are putting on the ice.
    Last edited by Mathman; 04-17-2009 at 06:13 PM.

  11. #41
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post




    1. Suppose you are judging, say, a novice competition, Someone does a pretty good triple jump. Not Brian Joubert pretty good, but pretty good for the competition at hand. Would that skater get a +2 GOE for doing the best jump of the day?
    May I answer that with another question? What is the point of giving Plus GoEs if a skater has complied with the base value of the jump? He did what he was supposed to do. Now, if he adds something that is out of the ordinary, say a Tano, or even more difficult, 'hands on hips', then it is reasonable to give a plus GoE These instances and probably others show an addition which is the definition of plus in arithmetic as well as in life.

    IMO, the entrance of a jump, is not the jump itself and should be covered in the PC scores. Jumps are Takeoffs, Air Turns and Landings.

    Takoffs describe what the jump is! It's the only part of a jump that gives it a name.

    Air Turns show the difficulty in rotations of all jumps. All jumps rotate in the favor of the skater except for rotations both to the left and right which are not considered other than 2 separate jumps.

    Landing are covered by regulations in accordance with ISU.

    Minus GoEs make sense since complicity of a jump has not been met.

    Attemps are used to disguise faulty Take-offs. I'm not sure if the word is in the official vocabulary of the ISU.

  12. #42
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    May I answer that with another question? What is the point of giving Plus GoEs if a skater has complied with the base value of the jump? He did what he was supposed to do. Now, if he adds something that is out of the ordinary, say a Tano, or even more difficult, 'hands on hips', then it is reasonable to give a plus GoE These instances and probably others show an addition which is the definition of plus in arithmetic as well as in life.
    I think the idea is this. GOEs do not mean that the skater added something extra onto his jump. They reward the quality of the jump. A big jump that gets extraordinary height and superior distance is regarded as better than a tiny little jump (this is item #4).

    Similarly if a jump landing has superior extension and flow (items five and six), that is better than a jump that lacks these qualities, even though both jumps satisfy the bare bones of the defintion for base value.

    That's the theory, anyway.
    Last edited by Mathman; 04-17-2009 at 06:58 PM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think the idea is this. GOEs do not mean that the skater added something extra onto his jump. They reward the quality of the jump.
    Well, it's both.

    -Unexpected/creative/difficult entry
    -Clear steps preceeding (especially when we're not considering the short program element of which this is a required part)
    -Varied position in the air / delay in rotation

    could all be considered adding something extra on to the jump.

    I'd also include unnexpected/creative/difficult exit, although that's not explicitly one of the bullet points, except insofar as it constitutes good extension.

    The way the original guidelines read, to get +1, the jump has to be better quality than just adequate OR it has to have something added.

    For +2, either the quality is good and something extra is added, OR the overall quality has to be better than good OR several somethings extra are added

    For +3, you pretty much need to have both better-than-good quality and extra enhancements

    These new guidelines focusing on the positives break down further which areas can be better quality or have something added.

  14. #44
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Well, it's both.
    I think there has been a progression, since the beginning of the CoP, away from the original intent of the GOEs. Here is what the ISU summary of the IJS says about the responsibility of the judges.


    b) Judges

    Under the ISU Judging System, the Judges focus entirely on scoring the quality of each element and the quality of the Program Components. Their scores will be based on specific quality criteria for each element and will provide a comprehensive assessment of each skater’s skills and performance.
    I guess it is hard to keep quality and quantity entirely separate.

  15. #45
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think there has been a progression, since the beginning of the CoP, away from the original intent of the GOEs.
    (snip)
    I guess it is hard to keep quality and quantity entirely separate.
    It is a thought but it doesn't seem to follow anything official. The description of a jump is quite clear that very first day a skater learned the difference between a loop jump and a salchow jump. There are differences. Scoring the quality of a jump are all included in those Guidelines. I have no problem with 'minus GoEs' My question:

    How does one earn just the base value without any acoutrements? If there are two such skaters who meet that criteria, which skater performed the better jump without going into the guidelines. Has any skater actually just got the base value?

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