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Thread: Caroline Zhang - Is She an Oly Contender?

  1. #166
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    The speed issue seems to crop up because her double axel, a required jump in the short program, suffers the most from what seems such a tentative sentry and the lack of flow from the landing and exit.

  2. #167
    Tanguera feraina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Binthere View Post
    The speed issue seems to crop up because her double axel, a required jump in the short program, suffers the most from what seems such a tentative sentry and the lack of flow from the landing and exit.
    Yes, indeed. And I think she first noticeably slowed down after she fell on the 2A at 2007 National's (Junior), where she was expected to win after an incredible JGP season (she lost to Mirai by a small margin after falling the 2A in the SP, and 3F in the LP, so it was really hers to lose). Here's her last competition before National's (JGPF) and first competition after National's (JW):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4whtBGdapY
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSr9lNt7K8M

    And here's the earliest youtube video of her (2006 Golden West):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5j1z...eature=related

    Obviously she wasn't especially fast before, but she wasn't especially slow either. She didn't slow down too much before jumping, and attacked the jump and jumped into it more.

    Also, she didn't seem especially slow in general when she was just skating across the ice throughout the programs, especially for her size. Gentle, but not slow. I think she tends to slow down more when she gets nervous, maybe she hits her toepicks more or something.

  3. #168
    Thank God for Stephane Lambiel and Matt Savoie! shine's Avatar
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    I actually find laughable the idea that a skater somehow needs to "slow down" when they are skating to "slower" music. Speed, in another word, is the efficiency of stroking, or how much eas a skater glides around the ice with. Just because a skater is skating to a slow piece of music, it doesn't mean she needs to intentionally lose the natural flow that she usually has. It's about phrasing your movement so that it matches and interprets the slower music.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    and what, pray tell me, is the speed of a senior lady? Does Kimmie have the speed of a senior lady? Does Rachael? Does Joannie? Does Mao maintain the speed throughout? Bebe Liang arguably has the most speed of most of the international skaters.

    Can you be more explicit? Should a timer be used to ensure the speed is correct for senior competitive purposes? Does the music matter?

    just trying to get a grasp on speed, in general
    I'm not sure what you are trying to get at here. If you watch enough skating, you'll notice when some skaters are faster than others, have better stroking efficiency than others. It's all relative. And right now, Zhang has less speed than other elite senior ladies, period.

  5. #170
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    Here is another video of Caroline's FS at 4CC, shot by an amateur camera. The thing I noticed, she wasn't that slow as some people insisted, actually she was quite fluid on the ice.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfOR6Cp4NtQ

    Quote Originally Posted by feraina View Post
    Yes, indeed. And I think she first noticeably slowed down after she fell on the 2A at 2007 National's (Junior), where she was expected to win after an incredible JGP season (she lost to Mirai by a small margin after falling the 2A in the SP, and 3F in the LP, so it was really hers to lose). Here's her last competition before National's (JGPF) and first competition after National's (JW):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4whtBGdapY
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSr9lNt7K8M

    And here's the earliest youtube video of her (2006 Golden West):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5j1z...eature=related

    Obviously she wasn't especially fast before, but she wasn't especially slow either. She didn't slow down too much before jumping, and attacked the jump and jumped into it more.

    Also, she didn't seem especially slow in general when she was just skating across the ice throughout the programs, especially for her size. Gentle, but not slow. I think she tends to slow down more when she gets nervous, maybe she hits her toepicks more or something.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by ANW View Post
    Here is another video of Caroline's FS at 4CC, shot by an amateur camera. The thing I noticed, she wasn't that slow as some people insisted, actually she was quite fluid on the ice.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfOR6Cp4NtQ
    Thanks for posting this. You're right, she doesn't look slow here at all. I hope it's not the jerkiness of the camera that's contributing to this effect. Even her jumps look pretty good here (save the lutz).

  7. #172
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    I do think it's caused by the camera, if you watch the videos from the crew camera, not only did she look much slower, also the jumps looked very heavy and labored, which was not the case here, Her jumps were quite light and aerial.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andalusia View Post
    Thanks for posting this. You're right, she doesn't look slow here at all. I hope it's not the jerkiness of the camera that's contributing to this effect. Even her jumps look pretty good here (save the lutz).

  8. #173
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    Amateur video like that does give a better impression of speed. And she doesn't look slow here at all. Of course, this was 4CC back in January where Caroline competed along side Team USA, Rachael and Alissa.
    In the exhibition the next day, Team USA skated so fast !!!!!

    ...................... you couldn't even see them !!!!

  9. #174
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    I'm not sure what you are trying to get at here. If you watch enough skating, you'll notice when some skaters are faster than others, have better stroking efficiency than others. It's all relative. And right now, Zhang has less speed than other elite senior ladies, period.
    I watch a lot of LIVE skating, and Zhang's speed is as good as most of the senior ladies. She appears slow on TV because she is not yet as lithe as Yuka Sato, but then who is?

    Again - Is she the only skater in seniors that does not have your perception of the requisite speed? I'm not trying to be contrary. I would like to learn from people who can explain speed. Stroking is of paramount importance, and that was a good point you brought out. There is also timing with the music. I can't really see a speed demon doing The Dying Swan except as a comedy piece. It would be interesting to see YuNa do that "Swan" at the speed she skates now.

    As I stated before, Caroline is a work in progress. I see her speed improving in the manner of Yuka Sato or Michelle Kwan - not YuNa or Irina Slutskaya.

  10. #175
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    Someone reposted Caroline's 'Spanish Gypsy' SP at the GPF:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE0pKn3iQ6s

    Again, I'm not seeing the extraordinary slowness at all, except maybe a bit during the footwork sequence. This is why we've heard she's getting a new coach - to help her address this problem area.

  11. #176
    Custom Title LeCygne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolymerBob View Post
    Amateur video like that does give a better impression of speed. And she doesn't look slow here at all.
    I completely agree. Then again, we'd have to see an amateur video of Yu-Na to be able to compare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalusia View Post
    Someone reposted Caroline's 'Spanish Gypsy' SP at the GPF:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE0pKn3iQ6s

    Again, I'm not seeing the extraordinary slowness at all, except maybe a bit during the footwork sequence. This is why we've heard she's getting a new coach - to help her address this problem area.
    She's not slow at all here, this was her best short program ever, IMO. It was and still is her personal best, so not just IMO I guess.
    Last edited by LeCygne; 04-26-2009 at 12:07 PM.

  12. #177
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andalusia View Post
    Someone reposted Caroline's 'Spanish Gypsy' SP at the GPF:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE0pKn3iQ6s

    Again, I'm not seeing the extraordinary slowness at all, except maybe a bit during the footwork sequence. This is why we've heard she's getting a new coach - to help her address this problem area.
    I think we can put to rest that she has no speed. Still waiting to see the speed of YuNa's Ave Maria. Will she stay with the music or go full speed ahead?

    Who ever said tempo has nothing to do with speed?

    accelerando v. andante. No?

  13. #178
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    I think we can put to rest that she has no speed. Still waiting to see the speed of YuNa's Ave Maria. Will she stay with the music or go full speed ahead?
    Joe the fact is that Zhang always chooses slow music for a reason...Even she admits her speed needs to improve.

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I can't really see a speed demon doing The Dying Swan except as a comedy piece. It would be interesting to see YuNa do that "Swan" at the speed she skates now.
    AFAIK, Annette Dytrt is one of the most speedy ladies.
    Her last LP was "Swan". What did you think of that?
    I didn't really enjoy that number because the music couldn't be any more repetitive. Because of that music edition I didn't really pay any attention to her speed...

  15. #180
    Tanguera feraina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeCygne View Post
    I completely agree. Then again, we'd have to see an amateur video of Yu-Na to be able to compare.
    The only amateur video I could really find is an exhibition program of Yuna:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwCp2s9fVYc

    Granted, it was exhibition not competition, but she doesn't seem significantly faster here than Caroline. What she does do better though, is expressiveness. This was also a few years ago.

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