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Thread: Caroline Zhang - Is She an Oly Contender?

  1. #76
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Once again basics plays a role. Laura Lepisto debuted at the senior circuit it seems about a competition after Zhang, and Lepisto gets way higher PCS. It's not just because Lepisto is Euro Champion. It's because the judges love Lepisto's skating. Her basics speed, ice coverage, edges are amazing....

    Sure reputation factors into things, but please don't make it seem like there isn't a marked difference between Zhang's/Flatt's skating quality and the top ladies.
    Very true! Disregarding jumps and spins and just looking at everything in between those elements, all of Kim, Asada, Ando, Rochette, Kostner, and Lepisto have stronger basics than Flatt and Zhang.

    I think Flatt is getting there in basics though, JMO. I noticed marked improvement in her at the World Team Trophy where the in-between skating is concerned compared to her earlier events in the season. Baby steps, people, it takes time.

    (Waits for Andulasia to come in and trash Rochette and Kostner any second now.)
    Last edited by museksk8r; 04-19-2009 at 11:35 AM.

  2. #77
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    I think Flatt is getting there in basics though, JMO. I noticed marked improvement in her at the World Team Trophy where the in-between skating is concerned compared to her earlier events in the season. Baby steps, people, it takes time.
    I see it too. Rachael got higher PCS than Caroline. For the first time ever. I think though she'd help herself out if she would repeat the loop instead of the lutz.

    I've heard people say that Rachael's edges were never bad, it was just well the speed factor.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Once again basics plays a role. Laura Lepisto debuted at the senior circuit it seems about a competition after Zhang, and Lepisto gets way higher PCS. It's not just because Lepisto is Euro Champion. It's because the judges love Lepisto's skating. Her basics speed, ice coverage, edges are amazing....

    Sure reputation factors into things, but please don't make it seem like there isn't a marked difference between Zhang's/Flatt's skating quality and the top ladies.
    Does Lepisto get way higher PCS than Zhang? Proof please. I take your comments with a grain of salt, as you're fond of saying you heard this and that from here and there without any real evidence to back your claims up. I know that Lepisto had higher PCS at her first Worlds, but that was also probably because she was the very last skater to skate her LP. Plus, Lepisto had been European champion by that time. I think Zhang and Lepisto have competed at the same event once or twice - it would be interesting to see what their PCS were like at those events.

    And I have never complained that Flatt and Zhang are being lowballed in PCS, so you can rest your "Mao, Yu-Na, et al. skate way faster, etc. than Caroline and Rachael" case along with all the other cases we know you feel so strongly about. It's convenient how you completely ignored my point about how Kostner was enormously gifted in PCS at 2009 Worlds for one of the worst LPs ever skated by someone of that stature in recent memory. And about how you think Alissa was totally gifted at Nats, but this same phenomenon somehow can't happen internationally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    (Waits for Andulasia to come in and trash Rochette and Kostner any second now.)
    I aim to please.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andalusia View Post
    I know that Lepisto had higher PCS at her first Worlds, but that was also probably because she was the very last skater to skate her LP. Plus, Lepisto had been European champion by that time.
    Just pointing out a fact, Lepisto's 1st senior Worlds was 2008 where she finished 8th, and she wasn't the very last skater to skate her LP . . . if I recall, she was actually in the very 1st group of skaters to skate the LP because she had a disastrous SP there, which she followed up with a very nice LP. She was 6th this year at her 2nd senior Worlds. PCS are always higher for the final LP flight of skaters in a World Championship compared to the earlier groups of skaters.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolymerBob View Post
    As far as spirals, jumps and spins go, Caroline can do anything the Twin Goddesses can do, minus Mao's triple axel. ( And I read somewhere she was working on that. ) What Caroline lacks is refinement. She needs deeper edges, smoother take-off's, better foot-work. Basically, God ( as well as the devil ) is in the details. When she smoothes out her rough edges, raises her PSC scores, she will be competitive with anyone.

    Caroline is a rough diamond. Somebody needs to polish her up.
    This pretty much sums it up. Great post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Just pointing out a fact, Lepisto's 1st senior Worlds was 2008 where she finished 8th, and she wasn't the very last skater to skate her LP . . . if I recall, she was actually in the very 1st group of skaters to skate the LP because she had a disastrous SP there, which she followed up with a very nice LP. She was 6th this year at her 2nd senior Worlds. PCS are always higher for the final LP flight of skaters in a World Championship compared to the earlier groups of skaters.
    Aha, I'm mistaken, I thought her first Worlds was in L.A. in 2009. She was the very last skater to skate her LP this year.

    So, she had been to a previous Worlds and had been European champion...makes sense as to why her PCS would go up. She deserves it - I think Lepisto's a gorgeous skater and far superior to Kostner and Rochette presentation-wise. If she did the harder jumps and had less mistakes, her PCS would be even higher.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PolymerBob View Post
    As far as spirals, jumps and spins go, Caroline can do anything the Twin Goddesses can do, minus Mao's triple axel. ( And I read somewhere she was working on that. )

    Caroline is a rough diamond. Somebody needs to polish her up.
    Uh, no. Caroline cannot do a real lutz like Yu-Na, and the idea that she's working on a 3A is a joke, because the axel is her worst jump ever. She approaches that jump almost as if she's afraid of it - as Dick Button would say, "there's no jump in that jump."

    And sure, Caroline can land more jumps and do the sal and loop as compared to Yu-Na and Mao, but CoP favours quality over quantity.

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    let's just call a spade a spade and tell it like it really is. Cop was MADE for both Kim and Asada. 'Nuff said.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andalusia View Post
    Uh, no. Caroline cannot do a real lutz like Yu-Na, and the idea that she's working on a 3A is a joke, because the axel is her worst jump ever. She approaches that jump almost as if she's afraid of it - as Dick Button would say, "there's no jump in that jump."

    And sure, Caroline can land more jumps and do the sal and loop as compared to Yu-Na and Mao, but CoP favours quality over quantity.
    Yes, Caroline deservedly doesn't get the high GOE on jump elements like Kim, Asada, Rochette, and Kostner do when they are all clean. Zhang's jumps don't have the height, the edge quality, the speed, or difficult transitions into and out of the jumps as those 4 do when they are "on."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andalusia View Post
    Aha, I'm mistaken, I thought her first Worlds was in L.A. in 2009. She was the very last skater to skate her LP this year.

    So, she had been to a previous Worlds and had been European champion...makes sense as to why her PCS would go up. She deserves it - I think Lepisto's a gorgeous skater and far superior to Kostner and Rochette presentation-wise. If she did the harder jumps and had less mistakes, her PCS would be even higher.
    I think that if Lepisto had two Lutzes and a Flip, she would fight for the fourth place, maybe bronze medal.

    Zhang has a lot of potential, but skating 4 minutes to Ave Maria doesn't help her, considering how slow she is. Ave Maria would be perfect for a SP though.
    Maybe next year she will come with a more interesting LP.
    Last edited by gio; 04-19-2009 at 02:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gio View Post
    I think that if Lepisto had two Lutzes and a Flip, she would fight for the fourth place, maybe bronze medal.
    Someone posted a link to a Finnish site which had a video of Laura performing true lutzes, and they were real beauties. I'm not quite sure why she finds them hard to do in competition - perhaps they're relatively new to her and she needs more practice to make them consistent. If she can do a lutz, a flip wouldn't be hard to come by.

    I think Lepisto's very expressive and artistic, even more so than Yu-Na. The rest look as if they're performing choreography, whereas what Laura does seems organic. She reminds me very much of Chen Lu.

  13. #88
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    And about how you think Alissa was totally gifted at Nats, but this same phenomenon somehow can't happen internationally
    Where did I ever say that I don't think international judges can screw over another skater using PCS. Do you hear my Patrick Chan complaints, constantly over and over again?

    But in the case of Alissa. No, I don't think international judges would have done what the USFSA Judges did. What bugs me about what the USFSA judges did was they gave Alissa way higher PCs than she gets internationally. If Alissa was normally getting Pcs like that, I could have understood what the USFSA judges were doing.

    Alissa doesn't get 8 point leads in PCS over Zhang and Flatt internationally. So why are the USFSA Judges doing it? And really while Alissa is prettier to watch she doesn't skate with that much speed etc over Zhang/Flatt.

    And the thing though that annoyed me the most was Alissa's lack of difficulty in her long program. Attempting only 4 triples, no 3/3, only two double axels and still can't skate it clean. I actually firmly believe difficult jump layouts need to be rewarded more because cases like Alissa and well Patrick Chan beating Oda in the free skate annoy the heck out of me.

    This being said the case of Chan bothers me less because at least he attempts the same difficulty as men like Evan (normally)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Do you hear my Patrick Chan complaints, constantly over and over again?
    Uh, yeah, we all do. Unfortunately.

    I wasn't questioning your belief that Alissa was overscored at Nats so as to put her on the World team - have you heard me reiterating my support for that stand?

    I brought up Alissa to make the point that if gifting in PCS can occur nationally, so can it internationally, for whatever reasons (reputation, favouritism, etc.). Cases in point: Rochette and Kostner, the latter especially at this most recent Worlds.

    You went off on a tangent about Rachael and Caroline's PCS vis-a-vis the top skaters when I have never once mentioned that these two skaters are unfairly marked in PCS.

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    OGM: Yun-a
    OSM: Joannie
    OBM: Mao
    U.S. with no one on the podium.

    Too early to make predictions? Maybe... but I don't agree with people's "unexpected" factor. Unexpected happened under 6.0, but we've only had one winter Olympics under CoP so far. I'm not sure if you can call the results of '06 unexpected, I mean Sasha usually psyches herself out and blows something, unfortunately. Irina - same thing, she certainly wasn't a lock for gold, she had a history of making just enough mistakes to rob herself of the gold. Arakawa was a bit out of nowhere but who else was really expected to win?

    Yun-a towers above everyone else, and she's rock solid. Only way she won't get OGM is either injury, or some crazed korean fan injuring her or freaking her out.

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