Olympic judging changes ( 5 judge results)

mycelticblessing · Apr 29, 2009

dorispulaski said:
S&Z had a gorgeous high, fully rotated triple twist that scored high GOE. T&M had a chest crashy triple twist. The rules were changed so that a double twist with a lot of features could score as high as a triple twist, particularly if the triple twisting lady didn't do an extreme split before the rotation (Shen's was not extreme).

Worse, S&Z used a triple toe for their single jump and a triple toe double axel sequence for their combination. T&M did a 3t2t combination and a 3S. It was forbidden to do the 3t seq 2A if the 3t was the single jump. Trying to get a different combination/sequence led to Zhao's injury, for that matter, as well as taking the hit.

Although these 2 changes may not have been deliberately created to favor T&M, they surely did favor them.

I wouldn't have thought T/M needed much help in winning the Gold. They had won both worlds before the Olympics, though Shen and Zhao did have problems in both worlds that T/M won. I wonder why they would downgrade the triple twist though. It's one of the 'highlights' of Pairs skating. A double is much less spectacular. Is that why the pairs were all doing double twists in the SP at the Olympics?

dorispulaski said:
It is interesting to see that the twist rules now favor doing a triple twist rather than a double twist again, which looks even more suspect to me.

The Germans, the Chinese and the Ukranians are the only one with good triple twists. V/M have the best twist I think, in terms of height and rotation, but they aren't even considered threats for the Olympic podium at this point in time. So the new rules would favour the Germans and the Chinese, whom the battle for Gold is between, at least from what we've seen from 2008-9 worlds.

Medusa · Apr 30, 2009

Mathman said:
He should do it anyway. He might take a hit in terms of GOE points, but it delivers the message. I'm Plushenko. You're not.

mycelticblessing said:
The Germans, the Chinese and the Ukranians are the only one with good triple twists. V/M have the best twist I think, in terms of height and rotation, but they aren't even considered threats for the Olympic podium at this point in time. So the new rules would favour the Germans and the Chinese, whom the battle for Gold is between, at least from what we've seen from 2008-9 worlds.

I actually think that it's a rather weak element for Aliona and Robin. Let's face it, he isn't really tall nor is he as muscular as Bonnheur or Smirnov. The technique they have on it is good, but the height is very average and they mostly get level one, rarely level 2.

elanna · Apr 30, 2009

I`m afraid that the reduction in the number of judges in a complex with preserving their anonimity would cause a sharp increase in bias of judging, and the next season is an Olympic one...

seniorita · Apr 30, 2009

Mathman said:
He should do it anyway. He might take a hit in terms of GOE points

you think he should try again what used to be a combo in 6.0 system, 3 Axel - ½ Loop - 3 Flip? wouldnt it be in vain in terms of points as a sequence?

but it delivers the message. I'm Plushenko. You're not.

LOL!

Mathman · Apr 30, 2009

seniorita said:
you think he should try again what used to be a combo in 6.0 system, 3 Axel - ½ Loop - 3 Flip? wouldnt it be in vain in terms of points as a sequence?

\In vain, yes. I can't seem to come up with any way to makre it work in the IJS. I think this is a serious flaw in the CoP.

3A + half loop + 3F sequence = (8.2 + 5.5) x .8 = 10.96 points.

But you save an extra jumping pass. Let's say you do a double Axel (2.5 points.) Now in two jumping passes you have done 3A, 3F and 2A and have scored 13.46 points.

Or you could just forget the sequence, throw out the extra double Axel, and do 3A and then 3F as a separate jump. 13.70 points.

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 30, 2009

So we can understand: High Scoring Combos beat out High Scoring Seqences, but what about the last jump in either.... No flow out on the last jump ala Lipinsky and bad blow out on last jump a la so many skaters???

Are both no flow outs and poor flow outs get the same -goe? (I'll bet it's subjective and therefore against the purpose of the CoP.) No?

Mathman · Apr 30, 2009

Joesitz said:
Are both no flow outs and poor flow outs get the same -goe? (I'll bet it's subjective and therefore against the purpose of the CoP.) No?

Interesting question. I just looked up the GOE rules again.

Negative GOEs and positive GOEs seem to be handled differently. For negative GOEs, the judges are supposed to be looking for specific errors. There is not any negative GOE specified for "no flow out" or "poor flow out." Only for things like "weak landing" (on toe, wrong edge, etc.), or for "stepping out of the landing."

On the positive side, you get plus GOEs for "superior extention on landing" and "superior flow in and out" of the jump (and in between jumps for sequences.

This does seem to be up to the judges' opinions.

Caroline Zhang's double Axel has essentially no flow out. At Four Continents in the SP she got two +1's, one -1, and six 0's. In the LP she got three -1's and six 0's.

At the team trophy event she got two -1's and seven 0's in both the SP and the LP.

By the way, even though the judges' marks were exactly the same in the SP and the LP on this element, still she ended up with an average of exactly 0 in the LP and -0.14 in the SP, due to the vagaries of the random draw.

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 30, 2009

^^^
Thanks MM for the info on no flow out and its cousin poor flow out Apparently, only the air turns in a jump are super imprtant, the take-off and landings take a back seat in scoring.

I remember watching Lambiel land his Quad Toe by 3Toe in Moscow Worlds. What a beautiful sight when the outstaning flow is presented.

I wont open a pandora's box by naming skaters but how many 3x3s or even 3x2s have landings in place with no flow and those that curl up on that last jump?

Acrobatics is so important in figure skating. It's just more air turns anywhich way. No?

mycelticblessing · May 1, 2009

Medusa said:
The really bad Triple Twisters like K/S and especially D/D would often be better off with a very well executed level 4 Double Twist, they net the 4.5 points plus good GOEs - and it looks clean.

I think so too. Not so much for K/S, they do get a decent mark for their triple twist, but D/D should do a level four double twist. At Worlds, their triple twist looked messy and Duhamel/Buntin had a better mark on their twist as they did a level four double twist with positive GOEs.

Medusa said:
I actually think that it's a rather weak element for Aliona and Robin. Let's face it, he isn't really tall nor is he as muscular as Bonnheur or Smirnov. The technique they have on it is good, but the height is very average and they mostly get level one, rarely level 2.

Their SBS jumps are their best element for me. Robin is quite short for a pairs skater, but when they do their triple twist he usually manages to catch her, instead of her crashing into his chest. Their twist is not spectacular, but they do get a better mark on that element as compared to both the Russian teams.

Medusa · May 1, 2009

mycelticblessing said:
Their twist is not spectacular, but they do get a better mark on that element as compared to both the Russian teams.

I simply don't get why M/T can't clean up their twist. With K/S I get it, it's probably a mixture of his lack of experience and her lack of extension. But M/T got great height on it, really good height, she looks gorgeous in the air - but somehow their landing on it is always bumpy. I mean, there should be something they could about that. Because then their twist would get more points than the one of Aliona and Robin.

mycelticblessing · May 1, 2009

Medusa said:
I simply don't get why M/T can't clean up their twist. With K/S I get it, it's probably a mixture of his lack of experience and her lack of extension. But M/T got great height on it, really good height, she looks gorgeous in the air - but somehow their landing on it is always bumpy. I mean, there should be something they could about that. Because then their twist would get more points than the one of Aliona and Robin.

She does look great in the air. I especially love her hand position when they do their triple twist in the SP.

http://www.daylife.com/photo/0dpA2416eN8zt?q=trankov

It could also be a lack of experience with them. They've only started putting in a triple twist in the 07-08 season. That's about the same time as K/S. The height they get is almost as good as the Chinese. But the catch is never good.:no:

gkelly · May 1, 2009

Medusa said:
I simply don't get why M/T can't clean up their twist. With K/S I get it, it's probably a mixture of his lack of experience and her lack of extension. But M/T got great height on it, really good height, she looks gorgeous in the air - but somehow their landing on it is always bumpy. I mean, there should be something they could about that.

Well, Berezhnaya always got great height and had one of the most spectacular double twists ever, but she always had trouble rotating the triple.

chloe · May 1, 2009

Didn´t Yagoudin used to do also a strange combination sequence, I can´t remember at all what was it.

Olympic judging changes ( 5 judge results)

mycelticblessing

Medusa

elanna

seniorita

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

mycelticblessing

Medusa

mycelticblessing

gkelly

chloe

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