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Thread: Olympic judging changes ( 5 judge results)

  1. #76
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Making it more scoring favorable does not make it any easier to do. However, the fact that D&D and I&B, both teams with lousy twists, have put the 3Tw back in their program, tells you how the potential scoring works, even if you didn't look at the ISU communications.

  2. #77
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    But that could have very well been a coincidence and not a Russian ploy. E.g. COP didn't make anything easier for Plushenko. His specialty, huge and difficult combos, don't get any extra points for difficulty. And his unique jump combo, the 3A-3F, only counts as a sequence and therefore even gets less points than a solo 3A and a solo 3F.
    How does one land on a backoutside edge (Axels do just that) and execute a Flip? I think it would need a step to bring it into back inside edge, and isn't that a sequence and not a combo?

    I am not questioning the move, which I consider quite difficult, just the name in calling it a combo.

  3. #78
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    How does one land on a backoutside edge (Axels do just that) and execute a Flip? I think it would need a step to bring it into back inside edge, and isn't that a sequence and not a combo?

    I am not questioning the move, which I consider quite difficult, just the name in calling it a combo.
    I think you are right, he had some kind of step inbetween. Half Loop, I guess?

  4. #79
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Making it more scoring favorable does not make it any easier to do. However, the fact that D&D and I&B, both teams with lousy twists, have put the 3Tw back in their program, tells you how the potential scoring works, even if you didn't look at the ISU communications.
    Should not the appearance of a 3Twist be judged in the PC scores? and isn't it always a personal judgement on how it looks?

    It seems all successful 3Twists should get its base value, the height the lady appears in the jump is measured by different eyes unless the roar of the crowd affects the judging?

    If a Pairs team needs points, and they are aware the twist is not as high as their competitors, they should do for the base value points anyway. No?

  5. #80
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    This one, not so much. If we're objecting to a system being systematically unfair, then we wouldn't identify the skaters it is unfair to by name but rather by the situations in which they would lose out.
    So to the definition of "unfair" we should add something to the effect that, besides treating all skaters equally, the rules for scoring should be correlated with the athletes' performances and should not be affected by things outside the athletes' control, such as who wins a coin toss or a lucky placement in the draw for starting order.

    About carrying over points from one phase of the competition to the next, there are a lot of different ways to do it (all of them "fair" in my opinion.)

    In the World Series, the Cubs win the first game 10 to 0, then lose the next four 2 to 1. The Cubs' manager says, "I sure wish I could have saved some of those runs for the later games."

    But he couldn't. All he could carry over was the win (the first place ordinal.)

    In pole vaulting, one athlete clears 14 feet, then 15 feet, then 16 feet. Then he attempts 17 feet and fails. Another vaulter passes at all the lower heights, attempts 17 feet as his first jump, makes it over, and wins.

    What the first vaulter got to carry over was "the lead so far," plus the opportunity to proceed to the next height -- a prize that the second vaulter got for free, by choosing a different strategy.

    At the annual Oxford University Regatta, they put all the boats in the water in the order in which they finished last year, with a certain number of meters between them. Then everyone rows like crazy. You "win" if you catch up to the boat in front of you and bump it. You lose if the boat behind you bumps you first.

    The next year the ordinals are carried over, and you get to start one place ahead or one place behind your previous starting place.

    The two or three crews that are serious oarsmen try hard to overtake the number one team, or to maintain their position if they are already number one. In contrast, the lads in boat number 43 are probably less worried about boat number 44 catching up to them than about falling into the water drunk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    I think you are right, he had some kind of step inbetween. Half Loop, I guess?
    He should do it anyway. He might take a hit in terms of GOE points, but it delivers the message. I'm Plushenko. You're not.

  6. #81
    Loving pairs, dance and figure skating mycelticblessing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    S&Z had a gorgeous high, fully rotated triple twist that scored high GOE. T&M had a chest crashy triple twist. The rules were changed so that a double twist with a lot of features could score as high as a triple twist, particularly if the triple twisting lady didn't do an extreme split before the rotation (Shen's was not extreme).

    Worse, S&Z used a triple toe for their single jump and a triple toe double axel sequence for their combination. T&M did a 3t2t combination and a 3S. It was forbidden to do the 3t seq 2A if the 3t was the single jump. Trying to get a different combination/sequence led to Zhao's injury, for that matter, as well as taking the hit.

    Although these 2 changes may not have been deliberately created to favor T&M, they surely did favor them.
    I wouldn't have thought T/M needed much help in winning the Gold. They had won both worlds before the Olympics, though Shen and Zhao did have problems in both worlds that T/M won. I wonder why they would downgrade the triple twist though. It's one of the 'highlights' of Pairs skating. A double is much less spectacular. Is that why the pairs were all doing double twists in the SP at the Olympics?




    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    It is interesting to see that the twist rules now favor doing a triple twist rather than a double twist again, which looks even more suspect to me.
    The Germans, the Chinese and the Ukranians are the only one with good triple twists. V/M have the best twist I think, in terms of height and rotation, but they aren't even considered threats for the Olympic podium at this point in time. So the new rules would favour the Germans and the Chinese, whom the battle for Gold is between, at least from what we've seen from 2008-9 worlds.

  7. #82
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    He should do it anyway. He might take a hit in terms of GOE points, but it delivers the message. I'm Plushenko. You're not.


    Quote Originally Posted by mycelticblessing View Post
    The Germans, the Chinese and the Ukranians are the only one with good triple twists. V/M have the best twist I think, in terms of height and rotation, but they aren't even considered threats for the Olympic podium at this point in time. So the new rules would favour the Germans and the Chinese, whom the battle for Gold is between, at least from what we've seen from 2008-9 worlds.
    I actually think that it's a rather weak element for Aliona and Robin. Let's face it, he isn't really tall nor is he as muscular as Bonnheur or Smirnov. The technique they have on it is good, but the height is very average and they mostly get level one, rarely level 2.

  8. #83
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    I`m afraid that the reduction in the number of judges in a complex with preserving their anonimity would cause a sharp increase in bias of judging, and the next season is an Olympic one...

  9. #84
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    He should do it anyway. He might take a hit in terms of GOE points
    you think he should try again what used to be a combo in 6.0 system, 3 Axel - ½ Loop - 3 Flip? wouldnt it be in vain in terms of points as a sequence?

    but it delivers the message. I'm Plushenko. You're not.
    LOL!



  10. #85
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    you think he should try again what used to be a combo in 6.0 system, 3 Axel - ½ Loop - 3 Flip? wouldnt it be in vain in terms of points as a sequence?
    \In vain, yes. I can't seem to come up with any way to makre it work in the IJS. I think this is a serious flaw in the CoP.

    3A + half loop + 3F sequence = (8.2 + 5.5) x .8 = 10.96 points.

    But you save an extra jumping pass. Let's say you do a double Axel (2.5 points.) Now in two jumping passes you have done 3A, 3F and 2A and have scored 13.46 points.

    Or you could just forget the sequence, throw out the extra double Axel, and do 3A and then 3F as a separate jump. 13.70 points.

  11. #86
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    So we can understand: High Scoring Combos beat out High Scoring Seqences, but what about the last jump in either.... No flow out on the last jump ala Lipinsky and bad blow out on last jump a la so many skaters???

    Are both no flow outs and poor flow outs get the same -goe? (I'll bet it's subjective and therefore against the purpose of the CoP.) No?

  12. #87
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Are both no flow outs and poor flow outs get the same -goe? (I'll bet it's subjective and therefore against the purpose of the CoP.) No?
    Interesting question. I just looked up the GOE rules again.

    Negative GOEs and positive GOEs seem to be handled differently. For negative GOEs, the judges are supposed to be looking for specific errors. There is not any negative GOE specified for "no flow out" or "poor flow out." Only for things like "weak landing" (on toe, wrong edge, etc.), or for "stepping out of the landing."

    On the positive side, you get plus GOEs for "superior extention on landing" and "superior flow in and out" of the jump (and in between jumps for sequences.

    This does seem to be up to the judges' opinions.

    Caroline Zhang's double Axel has essentially no flow out. At Four Continents in the SP she got two +1's, one -1, and six 0's. In the LP she got three -1's and six 0's.

    At the team trophy event she got two -1's and seven 0's in both the SP and the LP.

    By the way, even though the judges' marks were exactly the same in the SP and the LP on this element, still she ended up with an average of exactly 0 in the LP and -0.14 in the SP, due to the vagaries of the random draw.
    Last edited by Mathman; 04-30-2009 at 03:15 PM.

  13. #88
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    ^^^
    Thanks MM for the info on no flow out and its cousin poor flow out Apparently, only the air turns in a jump are super imprtant, the take-off and landings take a back seat in scoring.

    I remember watching Lambiel land his Quad Toe by 3Toe in Moscow Worlds. What a beautiful sight when the outstaning flow is presented.

    I wont open a pandora's box by naming skaters but how many 3x3s or even 3x2s have landings in place with no flow and those that curl up on that last jump?

    Acrobatics is so important in figure skating. It's just more air turns anywhich way. No?

  14. #89
    Loving pairs, dance and figure skating mycelticblessing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    The really bad Triple Twisters like K/S and especially D/D would often be better off with a very well executed level 4 Double Twist, they net the 4.5 points plus good GOEs - and it looks clean.
    I think so too. Not so much for K/S, they do get a decent mark for their triple twist, but D/D should do a level four double twist. At Worlds, their triple twist looked messy and Duhamel/Buntin had a better mark on their twist as they did a level four double twist with positive GOEs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post

    I actually think that it's a rather weak element for Aliona and Robin. Let's face it, he isn't really tall nor is he as muscular as Bonnheur or Smirnov. The technique they have on it is good, but the height is very average and they mostly get level one, rarely level 2.
    Their SBS jumps are their best element for me. Robin is quite short for a pairs skater, but when they do their triple twist he usually manages to catch her, instead of her crashing into his chest. Their twist is not spectacular, but they do get a better mark on that element as compared to both the Russian teams.
    Last edited by mycelticblessing; 05-01-2009 at 12:12 AM.

  15. #90
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mycelticblessing View Post
    Their twist is not spectacular, but they do get a better mark on that element as compared to both the Russian teams.
    I simply don't get why M/T can't clean up their twist. With K/S I get it, it's probably a mixture of his lack of experience and her lack of extension. But M/T got great height on it, really good height, she looks gorgeous in the air - but somehow their landing on it is always bumpy. I mean, there should be something they could about that. Because then their twist would get more points than the one of Aliona and Robin.

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